Problems after Gearbox Oil and Filer Change.

[Billbags]

Hi guys,

Just did a tranny oil and filter change this weekend. I followed audipages for instructions. However, she doesn't want to change up very well. There are no nasty noises or clunks and everything seems smoother than before. I just don't want to drive her in case I cause some damage. After a quick test run, I took off the fill plug and the oil immediately wanted to spill out. So, no chance of a top up.

6 litres out and 6 back in (I take it that the coverter and pump held the other 3).

Do I keep driving and hoping that the tranny settles?

I wish I hadn't bothered now. I changed the oil as the tranny was clunking into drive and reverse but she was changing properly (although there was a rev flare going into top gear).

1998 D2 Pre-facelift

DPZ Tranny

Mark

[Ska]

Did you check the temp when you filled up? Also was the engine running when you removed the drain plug? If not the oil would have poured out for sure.

[Billbags]

Hi Ska,

The tranny was at ambient temp when I started the fill.

The car was switched off as I filled. Everytime the oil started leaking out, I would replace the plug and turn her over and let the oil suck up through the box (and go through te gears). I kept doing this until I couldn't get any more oil in (when she WASN'T turning over).

I took her for a run, noticed she was hesitant to change up and took her back. I put her up on the ramp, switched off and removed the fill plug. The oil immediately came pouring out. That's the stage I'm at now.

So, should I start her up from cold and then try to put some more oil in?

Mark

[Ska]

Hi Mark

I think you may have miss read what the good guide of audipages says (audipages A8 Automatic Transmission Servicing);

The transmission should be refilled whilst the engine is running as it sucks it up into the nether regions of the gearbox. Once it starts over flowing then plug it back up and run it through the gears then try topping it up again about 2mins later (engine still running during this time), with the engine running; Basicaly the filler plug should be plugged up whilst the engine is running. opening it whilst the engine is off will get rid of more fluid but you don't want that. So fire her up from cold and fill it whilst the engine runs run through the gears and close the filler plug before you shut the engine off, then to check if there was enough ATF in there remove the filler plug (engine still running), then top up if it now over flows then thats it plug it up and then turn the engine off.

[Billbags]

Hi Ska,

Thanks for your recent reply.

That was my procedure, but only on the last fill attempt before road test. For the most part, and whilst she was turned off, I opened the filler, pumped as much of the oil in until it started to drip out. I then put in the plug and started her up, ran through the gears and switched off. I then opened up the filler and started filling again. On the last fill attempt, I kept her running until the oil started to drip.

After the road test, noticing that she was hesitant to change up, I ran her back to the ramp and switched off. I then opened the filler and the oil started to drip straight away.

I can’t get into see her until tomorrow morning. But, tomorrow I’ll put her up on the ramp (she will be at ambient temp) start her up and open the filler and try to put some more oil in.

So, in the morning, do I keep her running all the time while opening the filler, and when she starts to drip oil, replace the filler, run through the gears and then open the filler and try for some more oil?

Thanks Ska,

Mark

[BillBlank]

Edit: I just badly paraphrased what ska said, broke the golden rule of no typing after midnight.

If you don't have someone to run through the gears for you then that sound's like a reasonable compromise.

Bill

Edited August 10, 2008 by BillBlank

[Figure11]

The way I got round the 'one man ATF change' problem was to buy a second sump plug and drill 2 holes in it. One x 10mm and 1 x 6mm.

I then pushed a tight interference fit 10mm ally tube in the big hole until the end is level with the face of the plug. The 6mm hole got a looser interference fit 6mm ally pipe that sticks up about the same height (maybe a bit more) than the lip on the pan.

Once drained I put in the new plug attached my ATF supply tube to it and fill with ATF until it comes out the 6mm tube.

I can hang my ATF supply up and work the shifter i.a.w Audipages guide. Keep doing this until its coming out all the time then take the supply tube off (engine still running) and let the ATF drain out of the supply pipe. Once it stops, take out the second plug and replace with the original (engine still running). Robert is your mothers brother! :D I'll get a photo of the kit and add it later.

Mike

[Billbags]

Hi all,

I managed to get another litre of ATF in today. But!

Test Drive: On the flat the box is changing sweetly. But, when you accelerate, there is a mechanical whirring noise and no change.

The same happens when asking her to climb a hill. Once you have to put the foot down on the gas, the whirring starts and there is no power. The noise sounds like something spinning and can be described like Rrrrrrrrrrrr, if that makes any sense. :confused:

Oh, there was no 'limp mode' dash lights coming on (things that I read on the forum). And, the tiptronic works in the same way that the autobox does - OK on the flat but the noise returns under power, etc.

Devastated! Especially when the box is changing nicely when not under power.

I look forward to any help or sympathy you have.

Could it be something to do with the torque converter? Clutching at straws maybe

Mark

Edited August 11, 2008 by Billbags

[harpersimon]

Definately sounds convertor based, and sounds like its not had enough oil just yet. all the strainer o rings and seals replaced ok?

It is imperative that the engine is running when you are topping off the oil though, as others have stressed. Top it off with the engine running, filler plug out, THEN turn the engine off with filler plug in. otherwise you'll be looking at your oil on the floor again.

Am sure this is what you did.. but just wanted to stress that again - these boxes need a load of oil otherwise they appear to give all sorts of symptoms.. (perhaps run it to an indy gearbox specialist to do a simple oil check if you are not sure - depending where you are?) - peace of mind?

[LostKiwi]

When I did mine I filled the box (engine off) till it dripped out. Then started the engine and left the engine running the entire time while SWMBO cycled it up and down the gears (as near as she ever gets to driving it!) while I poured oil in until it over flowed, then cycled and poured more in and cycled and poured more in. From memory we went 5 cycles of up and down and filling before it stabilised.

Result - sweeter changes and a little quieter too....

[treetotreef]

Quick question to you guys,

If you read the audipages guide or the ZF guide (see attached) they both say to run through the gears when filling. Do you understand this as just put it into D,4,3,2,N and R?

I'm pretty sure that all that does (in the case of D,4,3,2) is select 1st. unless you actually run through the gears, either in tiptronic or D, it won't select them. The ZF catalogue says to:

Select R and D and use step shift (manualwinter

program) to shift through to 3rd gear.

But i don't have a winter/snow option in mine(must be when this trans is fitted to BMW's,merc's etc.)

Both guides also say to engage the handbrake throughout all this, so with the TORSEN centre diff, when you run it through the gears, it doesn't detect any slip, so it just allows the front wheels to spin up. for me, thats too much of a speed difference between the axles, so I left off the handbrake and ran it through the gears on the stands.

Any different takes on this?

Sorry to hear about your troubles Billbags, I'm going through something similar at the moment. I just wish they sold these cars in manual here in the uk!

[harpersimon]

I had always read that as foot on the brake, engine running and just selecting the gears - no wheels turning or anything. Just to suck oil up into the torque convertor etc.

[treetotreef]

Initially, thats how i read it too. But with the brakes on, D will only select 1st, unless it passes the speed/rpm threshold and upshifts to 2nd etc.

Hence the importance of checking the level again after a service i suppose...

[Ska]

Very interesting this as I only just had my ATF changed as well land I did go through the tiptronic gears as well, seems quite good on shifting but I'm not 100% satisfied due to the fact that only about 5.5 of the 9.2 litres was changed and the oil that came out of my box was BLACK with loads of swarf on the six magnets and the sump.

Tell you what, I'm gonna go buy some more ATF and I'll book in my car with the mechanic for another ATF change and this time I going to run through gears with the wheels spining up to about 40mph and disconnect the feed to the oil cooler in the radiator and pump out as much oil from the torque converter as possible whilst at the same time pouring new oil in until the colour changes £££! Will post back after I've had a chat with Mr mechanic friend.

[Figure11]

Tell you what, I'm gonna go buy some more ATF and I'll book in my car with the mechanic for another ATF change and this time I going to run through gears with the wheels spining up to about 40mph and disconnect the feed to the oil cooler in the radiator and pump out as much oil from the torque converter as possible whilst at the same time pouring new oil in until the colour changes £££! Will post back after I've had a chat with Mr mechanic friend.

Whooooaa, you are keen!

Actually I think you may have hit on the 'cheaper' way of doing a 'full' fluid change. It's a bit like the Steering fluid change. The system pumps out the old stuff as the new goes in. I have read on here that peeps do 2 full changes to get out as much old ATF as possible.

If it can be done with less than 18 litres then it will be cheaper than 2 full changes....... I watch with interest. You might have an adition to Audipages here Ska!

Mike

[Ska]

I would be surprised if it took 18 litres as 6 is replaced via the normal method through the filler neck and 3.2litres (3.4 for V8s) or there abouts would need to be extracted from the converter plus 5-6litres for messing around with. It may however be a three man job; One to top up the sump, one to keep an eye out on the open connection oil levels and one listening to Britney Spears in the drivers seat!

Edited August 12, 2008 by Ska

[harpersimon]

definately doesn't sound like a driveway change - i can imagine doing 40 on axle stands on the drive, and then..

[treetotreef]

This seems like a perfect time to rant!

Why do VW's have countersunk holes to locate the brake disc to the hub and Audi's don't?!

Every feckin time i have to put on a wheel it drives me insane that you have to line up the disc to the threaded hub! And don't even mention that plastic thingy!

what i'm geting at here is that you could run it on the stands (presuming they are secure of course!) and the vibration would be a lot less without wheels on...

[Figure11]

The plastic thingy, the plastic thingy, the plastic thingy........:D:D

Muhahahahahahaha

Actually, take the wheels off, use a shortened wheel bolt and Robert is related to you by marriage or accident of birth.

Mike

[BillBlank]

Britney Spears you say? I'm there! though seriously for a moment this does sound interesting, I would love to be there just to utter the immortal words "is it supposed to do that?". I also do a fine line in "whoops" and "is it bad if I've dropped the timing chain in the sump?" (hillman imp engine). I'd be interested to hear what your mechanic friend says, the idea of a complete oil change appeals. According to the paperwork mine has never had a change, despite being scheduled every 40k miles.

Bill

[A8 Doc]

For the price of oil, is it not worth getting a specialist to do it?

Audi charged me £152.00 inc. VAT for the full job.

On the D3 there is a 'blue' fluid which is more expensive but cures some of issues experienced with ZF transmissions. Mine has the normal 'gold' coloured one in and I changed it twice. Once at 60k and once at 70k.

I do understand working on your own cars, I really do. But auto boxes are a black art in my view.

[harpersimon]

I'm with you - been toying with changing it myself as am confident with spanners, but also like the back up of someone who specialises doing it. Seems as much as an oil change cures, there are some reports of post oil change woes!! mine has no record of a change, and is as sweet as a nut right now - whcih I wouldn't like to change. So not changing due to problem but more being driven to by the 'you should change it' advice.

I am going to get the ZF specialist mentioned in other posts over at Huddersfield to do it I think. If not for the piece of mind then for the fact that he can do it cheaper than I can buy the oil and strainer - and has done a few.

[Ska]

Though getting it done cheaper is always a plus, in the cases of A8 Gearbox ATF changes its more about making sure that the normal ATF is done right and if possible getting all of it changed rather than just diluting it. I would pay extra to make sure that all the fluid was replaced and replaced properly. You would think that the Audi dealers know what they are doing but like you say there are varying experiences across this forum including my own which has left a dent in my confidence in them to carry out this task properly; I had my ATF changed the first time by an Audi dealership and experience the "shunt" for the first time afterwards 7 miles down the road after picking the car up - later found the gear box took another litre of ATF! Since then I've supervised the method with mechanic.

Having had a look at the oil cooler pipes they are very easy to remove at the radiator (especially on the V6) so will at least crack them open to see the condition of the fluid after the initial ATF/filter change a couple of weeks ago and I'll check to see if the oil cooler itself is free of blockages. I have posted something on Audiworld as the Americans have loads more experience on gearboxes than us; the general consensus is that you could do what I said but they are confident with doing two ATF flushes with in a short period of time to "dilute" as much as possible.

[sloss]

There is no need to have the wheels turning while cycling through the gears. All it needs is to go through Reverse and Drive to make fluid operate the clutches and be sure all the galleries are filled.

Have it with the handbrake on hard and just at tickover - it'll fill up fine!

Keep topping up with it still running in gear until it overflows and put in the plug - job done!

[Billbags]

Hi all,

OK! Here it comes - Perhaps I should have mentioned that I had a mechanic renew the cambelt at the same time as I was servicing the gearbox.

Anyway, the problem with having no power at the transmission when under load wasn't the box (I was paranoid that I screwed up). The problem was the mechanic (a word that I shouldn't use to describe him) hadn't locked up the cams. Consequently, after taking it to A4Audi in Clydebank, and after they told me what the problem actually was and then fitting a new belt, the girl is running oh so sweet!

The belt was out by 5 teeth! The engine was actually pinking. Oh, the belt had a chunk out of the outside edge as if it was coming off the pulleys and hitting the covers.

Anyway, I had obviously made a good job on the gearbox oil as per Audipages. But, was so paranoid that I could only think that the whirring tinny noise I was hearing was a from 'broken' tranny.

Moral of the tale: Don't blindly trust just any old mechanic to do a proper job.

By the way, the original mech is denying that it was his fault and while thinking that the other garage did something else AND needlessly changed the belt, he refuses to give me any cash back!

Thanks everyone, for your supportive posts (as usual)

Mark