byron13 Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 No, I don't think McLaren went into this deliberately attempting to cheat, and they'd have been damn stupid to have tried to cheat over something that could be proven on a recording. I suspect it was a misunderstanding: McLaren trying to tell the FIA that they'd given up the place but felt it was theirs, and the FIA hearing it as "Sir! Sir! Toyota cheated, sir!"While you're bringing up the unfairness and cheating thing from 2007 again, just remember that Renault were found to have far more of McLaren's secret documents than McLaren had of Ferrari's, it was on their main computer system where potentially all their employees could see it rather than just held by a few individuals, and their team boss did not contact the FIA to report it when he found out. Renault's penalty: nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Have to admit I read it very differently teacake, lets just imagine it's a classroom and the teacher asks 2 children why they have been squabbling and MC say it's because TY called me a name? Teacher then gives TY detention. After Detention it becomes clear that MC sent a note to TY calling them a name first and Teacher then asks why MC did not mention this at the time? MC then claim that they thought Teacher had seen the original note!!! Result is that Teacher gives MC a weeks detention for not being totally honest!! As regards the Renault comment I really do not remember any news at the time stating that they had "far more" Ferrari data to hand and or that they had used it explicitly as MC had?? I do recall it being said IIRC that MC had passed some onto Renault??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teacake Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Have to admit I read it very differently teacake, lets just imagine it's a classroom and the teacher asks 2 children why they have been squabbling and MC say it's because TY called me a name? Teacher then gives TY detention. After Detention it becomes clear that MC sent a note to TY calling them a name first and Teacher then asks why MC did not mention this at the time? MC then claim that they thought Teacher had seen the original note!!! Result is that Teacher gives MC a weeks detention for not being totally honest!!As regards the Renault comment I really do not remember any news at the time stating that they had "far more" Ferrari data to hand and or that they had used it explicitly as MC had?? I do recall it being said IIRC that MC had passed some onto Renault??? The difference between your example and the real situation is that in your example the original note is not something to which the teacher has access, is not recording and reviewing and could not reasonably be expected to have knowledge of unless it's declared to them. As regards Renault - BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula One | Renault face McLaren spy charge. for thirteen months, Renault had on their computer system, according to the FIA, data that "included "but [was] not limited to, the layout and critical dimensions of the McLaren F1 car, together with details of the McLaren fuelling system, gear assembly, oil cooling system, hydraulic control system and a novel suspension component used by the 2006 and 2007 McLaren F1 cars."" From The Times - Renault enter dock over McLaren's stolen data claims - Motor Racing, Sport - The Independent "On the face of it, Renault are in even deeper trouble than McLaren. While it was not ever proved that anyone within the McLaren organisation saw the Ferrari data (Coughlan had it at home and showed it to De la Rosa, who told Alonso about it), McLaren's legal dossier will allege that 18 people within Renault admit having viewed the McLaren data on 11 separate Renault F1-owned computers. The source is believed to be three independent forensic computer reports provided by Kroll Ontrack. McLaren will allege that in March 2006, shortly before the design engineer Phil Mackereth had left the company to join Renault, 33 files of McLaren's confidential technical information were copied on to 11 floppy disks and subsequently loaded on to Renault's computer system that September. These files are said to contain more than 780 individual drawings outlining the entire technical blueprint of the 2006 and 2007 McLaren cars. McLaren also allege that seven very senior engineers (Tim Densham, Chief Designer; Martin Tolliday, Deputy Chief Designer; James Allison, Deputy Technical Director; Robin Tuluie, Head of Research and Development; Nicholas Chester, Head of Vehicle Performance; Peter Duffy, Head of Mechanical Design; Tony Osgood, Head of Transmission Design) saw the data." I repeat: Renault suffered no penalty whatsoever as a result of this. Their word was apparently good enough proof that they hadn't used any of the data, whereas McLaren's word was not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipex Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 It's a complex sport It shouldn't be though, and doesn't need to be, it very simple, cars race round a track, and the order they cross the line determines their finishing position. If a safety car comes out, then if anyone overtakes under safety car conditions they get dropped back to their previous position. Hardly rocket science, and all the 'controversy' and appeals are starting to nark me off with F1 this season already, and we've only had 1 race, it's fast becoming a joke and I might have to start watching A1GP instead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron13 Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 It shouldn't be though, and doesn't need to be, it very simple, cars race round a track, and the order they cross the line determines their finishing position.If a safety car comes out, then if anyone overtakes under safety car conditions they get dropped back to their previous position. Hardly rocket science, and all the 'controversy' and appeals are starting to nark me off with F1 this season already, and we've only had 1 race, it's fast becoming a joke and I might have to start watching A1GP instead! It obviously has go more complex when drivers and teams don't tell the truth when questioned by the FIA!! McLaren in crisis after stewards dismiss Lewis Hamilton's excuses - Times Online FIA publishes Hamilton evidence - F1 | ITV Sport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron13 Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 The difference between your example and the real situation is that in your example the original note is not something to which the teacher has access, is not recording and reviewing and could not reasonably be expected to have knowledge of unless it's declared to them. Not sure the Stewards really had time to monitor the radio chatter of 12 remaining cars, besides when asked it appears MC denied any knowledge of instructing LH to let Trulli past!!! As did LH it seems despite telling the media they had 5 minutes earlier. Not the smartest move my the MC team eh. So as in my example Teacher asks MC "did you pass a note to TY"? MC says NO knowing there is CCTV (which teacher does not watch 24/7) and then when MC tell other children in the playground that they did pass a note and teacher hears of this they check the tapes!!! Think Teacher might be a bit pissed off!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron13 Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 The difference between your example and the real situation is that in your example the original note is not something to which the teacher has access, is not recording and reviewing and could not reasonably be expected to have knowledge of unless it's declared to them.As regards Renault - BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula One | Renault face McLaren spy charge. for thirteen months, Renault had on their computer system, according to the FIA, data that "included "but [was] not limited to, the layout and critical dimensions of the McLaren F1 car, together with details of the McLaren fuelling system, gear assembly, oil cooling system, hydraulic control system and a novel suspension component used by the 2006 and 2007 McLaren F1 cars."" From The Times - Renault enter dock over McLaren's stolen data claims - Motor Racing, Sport - The Independent "On the face of it, Renault are in even deeper trouble than McLaren. While it was not ever proved that anyone within the McLaren organisation saw the Ferrari data (Coughlan had it at home and showed it to De la Rosa, who told Alonso about it), McLaren's legal dossier will allege that 18 people within Renault admit having viewed the McLaren data on 11 separate Renault F1-owned computers. The source is believed to be three independent forensic computer reports provided by Kroll Ontrack. McLaren will allege that in March 2006, shortly before the design engineer Phil Mackereth had left the company to join Renault, 33 files of McLaren's confidential technical information were copied on to 11 floppy disks and subsequently loaded on to Renault's computer system that September. These files are said to contain more than 780 individual drawings outlining the entire technical blueprint of the 2006 and 2007 McLaren cars. McLaren also allege that seven very senior engineers (Tim Densham, Chief Designer; Martin Tolliday, Deputy Chief Designer; James Allison, Deputy Technical Director; Robin Tuluie, Head of Research and Development; Nicholas Chester, Head of Vehicle Performance; Peter Duffy, Head of Mechanical Design; Tony Osgood, Head of Transmission Design) saw the data." I repeat: Renault suffered no penalty whatsoever as a result of this. Their word was apparently good enough proof that they hadn't used any of the data, whereas McLaren's word was not. Not really sure on this TeaCake but have to say last time I knew 11 floppy disks only have about 16 meg and I would hope the complete MC blueprints might be a bit bigger than that?? Suspect data received was quite basic and deemed irrelevant by the FIA, no more than as suggested at the time as an employee taking a bit of shop info when changing jobs. Hard to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Yet again another farce in what is supposed to be the pinnacle of motor racing.. the racing should be done on the track.. who gives a sh1te who has overtaken who and should they/ shouldn't they re-over take. Who gives a monkeys arse who has different rear diffusers.. the whole thing is becoming a joke... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lesK Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Yet again another farce in what is supposed to be the pinnacle of motor racing..the whole thing is becoming a joke... Nah, WTCC and WRC are far better than F1, and F1 has been a joke for years. I stopped watching it a while ago when whoever had the most money won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Scott Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 My brothers just told me he heard on the news that they are talking about excluding Hamilton for the rest of the season!!!!??? Anyone else heard anything? Its all just becoming a joke!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon magnifique Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 He shouldn't f*cking cheat then should he. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron13 Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 My brothers just told me he heard on the news that they are talking about excluding Hamilton for the rest of the season!!!!??? Anyone else heard anything? Its all just becoming a joke!!! Very much doubt that, news on some channels are reporting that MC might have to appear before an FIA disciplinary committee after their less than full disclosure in this incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarMad Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Its a great shame what ever happened. I few brief conversations at work to those not quite as empassioned as those in this thread shows how bad a position F1 is in. Many just don't get it at all, they don't know why things keep changing after the race and why things are so complex. They don't get it I understand that. But its the fact that the people that F1 want to attract the most the arm chair part time fan are the ones that just can't be bothered with it anymore. We are all discussing Hamilton this time but in a few weeks we could all be talking about Brawn GP having all their points and win(s) removed. F1 is a quick and fast moving sport but with rules and people running it that are from the 50's. They need to make decisions faster and in a clear and transparent fashion, are the the rules clear enough, why is there so much ambiguity still with page upon page of rules. The long and short of which is F1 could be at its hights but the reality is its losing supporters in droves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon magnifique Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Bernie is going to tighten the vice he has around Ron's balls for this, but he's not about to kick start the disintegration of F1 by banning the team altogether... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZURES3 Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 It's a complex sport Tom which needs a strong hand to control it and in this case I feel that again MC have got off lightly for being less than forthcoming with the truth ala Ferrari dossier gate!! Ferrari fan by any chance AZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teacake Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Not really sure on this TeaCake but have to say last time I knew 11 floppy disks only have about 16 meg and I would hope the complete MC blueprints might be a bit bigger than that?? Suspect data received was quite basic and deemed irrelevant by the FIA, no more than as suggested at the time as an employee taking a bit of shop info when changing jobs. Hard to say. I can get plenty of detailed images in 16MB. More than enough. The ending came when the whole matter was quietly dropped. As far as I am aware, Renault were not exonerated, nor did the FIA conclude that the data was irrelevant. The parties concerned simply agreed that no further action would be taken. McLaren probably stopped making a fuss because they thought it would help prevent the FIA taking further action against them in 2008, which they were at that time threatening to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teacake Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Not sure the Stewards really had time to monitor the radio chatter of 12 remaining cars, besides when asked it appears MC denied any knowledge of instructing LH to let Trulli past!!! As did LH it seems despite telling the media they had 5 minutes earlier. Not the smartest move my the MC team eh. So as in my example Teacher asks MC "did you pass a note to TY"? MC says NO knowing there is CCTV (which teacher does not watch 24/7) and then when MC tell other children in the playground that they did pass a note and teacher hears of this they check the tapes!!! Think Teacher might be a bit pissed off!! Y'see, I take this as evidence that McLaren would not have tried to pull the wool over the stewards' eyes, because they would certainly have been found out. I'm leaning more towards it being a misunderstanding - McLaren thought they were reporting one thing, the stewards heard it as another. Now, having realised the mistake, the stewards have egg on their face. How do they deal with it? Lash out, of course. I used to have a boss that did exactly the same thing. If they made a mistake, it was always because some-one had lied to them, not because they'd got the wrong end of the stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nordberg Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Seems to me that the FIA are doing nothing less than accusing Mclaren and, in particular, Hamilton of deliberately misleading the stewards. “The race director specifically asked Hamilton whether he had consciously allowed Trulli to overtake. Hamilton insisted that he had not done so." So, after going on record on a TV interview by telling the world he had been asked by the team to let Trulli past, he then walked into the stewards office and told them the opposite. Hmm.....sounds a bit odd to me. Hamilton is no dummy....and only a dummy would contradict themselves like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfc1912 Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Looks like he is a dummy then BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula 1 | Team veteran suspended by McLaren . Davey is being make to carry the can for both himself and Hamilton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teacake Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Yep, seems like I was wrong, McLaren really were that stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron13 Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 The sad part to me and the bit I find really despicable is that they sat and let Trulli take the 25 second penalty knowing full well that Lewis had forced him pass and still banged on about telemetry etc!! Listen to this conversation :- BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula 1 | Hamilton's team radio during Australian GP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron13 Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula 1 | Hamilton sorry for 'huge mistake' Too late sonny boy damage has been done. BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula 1 | Row has damaged Hamilton - Brundle Listen to Brundle he seems quite angry that the team manager got "burnt" and his face seems to say that he thinks LH should carry the can on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Se5aScott Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 What I find amazing is that nobody has found a way to blame it on Ferrari.... yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron13 Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 What I find amazing is that nobody has found a way to blame it on Ferrari.... yet Ah they must have brainwashed MC into telling porkies!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nordberg Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 What an embarassment. It's all coming out now.... So Hamilton was told by the team's sporting director Dave Ryan to basically answer the questions of the stewards directly - AKA being economical with the truth - AKA lying, and he went along with it. Sorry but that's a massive feck up on both their parts. IMHO, Hamilton is just as responsible as Ryan and should be held accountable. Yes, he should follow team orders, but there comes a point when wrong is just plain wrong and lying to the stewards, is just wrong.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teacake Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 What I find amazing is that nobody has found a way to blame it on Ferrari.... yet If only they'd still been in the race at that stage, it would have been a lot easier... This was a very stupid action by McLaren employees, both Hamilton and Ryan. We may never find out whose idea it really was, as McLaren are offering up Ryan as a sacrificial victim and hoping we'll leave it at that. It's unlikely to have been Hamilton acting alone, as Ryan could easily have corrected any misunderstading or misleading statement (or, let's face it, lie) made by his driver. So it was either Ryan leading Hamilton, as McLaren would have us believe, or the two of them together. Either way, I suppose it doesn't make a lot of difference. The team should stand or fall together, and bear collective responsibility for the actions of its individual members. It's no good doing something wrong and then blaming it on the actions of a rogue employee. That's why I thought it was wrong to strip the team of its points in 2007 but not do the same for the drivers. McLaren should have the book thrown at them for this idiot move (and this is coming from some-one who normally wants to see them do well, as byron knows all too well). It's all so flipping pointless. They had a good claim to the place and had kept their noses clean, and there was no need to resort to this sort of tactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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