Milo Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 To settle a drunken argument, can someone explain in simple terms what the difference is in real world situations? In the A4 in the snow with the ESP off I reckon I have more traction with Haldex over Torsen. If so, why? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINGH Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Haldex cars are usually front wheel drive and the rear wheel drive only kicks in if the fronts loose grip, so can take some time to engage. I have also heard from a mate with an S3 that Haldex can go wrong, he was trying to get his car up a wet ramp at a garage, and the front wheels kept spinning and the back wheels did nothing. Torisen as I understand is it is always delivering power 50/50 to front and back wheels and 60/40 rear/front on later quattros. A3's and TTs are the only Audi's that come with haldex, which also requires oil changes now and again. So, torisen everytime for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser647 Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Torsen is ALWAYS AWD and the Haldex is normally 2WD unless slippage is detected and then the drive is made available to all 4 wheels (so part-time AWD) With ESP off, Torsen sends the drive in it's default settings (I think) Where as Haldex will sense and split the power/torque. I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted January 16, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Ah shat, I got the names mixed up. But basically, the A3/S3 could get stuck in the snow like any other 2WD car then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon magnifique Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 From a Subaru, sorry Dacia, point of view it goes something like this: Subaru Symmetrical AWD - all conquering and magnificent quattro (Torsen) - sh*t VAG Haldex - really sh*t BMW XDrive - totally f*cking useless Apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINGH Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Yeah, I hear Scoobies have the best all wheel drive but why exactly is quattro shi*? It gets the job done and is very reliable (torsen) Maybe I would change my mind about quattro if I drove a Scooby with the fancy four wheel drive system! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 The early Haldex wasn't too hot - you could feel the power searching and moving to and fro and it didn't kick in very fast or predicatably. The later Haldex is apparently (I've yet to drive one) a big leap forward. You can have a Haldex system that deals with the early issues retrofitted for a few hundred quid. It wasn't sh1t but it was far from the best. Torsen hasn't let me down apart from once. That was when a drive shaft popped out of a wheel when I was on a track day. I lost all drive which confused and surprised me at the time until I read how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 I have had two remapped S3's with haldex based quattro since 2002. My only issue has been ground clearance. Either snow upto the bonnet and unable to push that volume of snow away, or simply the sump guard lifting the wheels clear off the ground on compacted snow. Either way, your not going very far! Torsen or Haldex doesnt really matter in those circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woppum Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 remember the mk4 r32 being site in the snow. bloke next door had a tt3.2 that was excellent though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted January 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Slightly clearer head now.... The argument was around the Haldex capability in the snow and ice. How does it perform? Is it comparable to Torsen, maybe slightly worse, much worse or even no better than a 2WD drive? One of the things I've enjoyed with the A4 recently is the ability to get out of car parks and side streets and travel on untreated roads with no drama while others in FWD and RWD cars have floundered. Does an S3 with Haldex give you that same ability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 As I mentioned in my post it depends on the car and it's age. Are you thinking current S3 or old S3? p.s. quattro in any form will help you vs fwd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted January 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 I'm thinking brand new S3 for April delivery I'm reading up as much as I can at the minute but first hand (unbiased) views would be very much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeDesmo Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Don't know how it compares with Torsen but my A3 Quattro has been great in the snow, getting up and down our snowy/icy drive and (untreated road), I even managed to tow the Wife's (one-wheel-drive) Galaxy uphill with it. The only issue is that the tyres are not up to the conditions but even so I've not got stuck anywhere. Certainly far better than any 2wd car, without snow tyres or chains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frodo Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 (edited) This site seem to give you all the answers. All Wheel Driven - Audi's quattro generations Torsen is now at generation 5 and is a 40:60 split from to rear. The site has some great videos to show how the generations have changed the way cars handle. Haldex is now at generation 4 and should now be proatcive rather than reactive due to the pretensioing. All Wheel Driven - Haldex all wheel drive system Again from the site it would suggest Audi has only used generation 1 and 4 of the Haldex system: All Wheel Driven - Audi all wheel drive explained Oh and as a disclaimer and some very wise words this is an excellent summary of 4WD/AWD as a safety feature All Wheel Driven - All wheel drive safety concerns And just for completeness here is the Scooby stuff which from the comments looks less easy to understand as they seem to change between versions and even countries with the same model. All Wheel Driven - Subaru all wheel drive explained HTH Edited January 17, 2010 by Frodo added link to safety Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon magnifique Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Milo said: first hand (unbiased) Ha ha.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidicks Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 DukeDesmo said: Don't know how it compares with Torsen but my A3 Quattro has been great in the snow, getting up and down our snowy/icy drive and (untreated road), I even managed to tow the Wife's (one-wheel-drive) Galaxy uphill with it. The only issue is that the tyres are not up to the conditions but even so I've not got stuck anywhere. Certainly far better than any 2wd car, without snow tyres or chains. As I've mentioned on other threads, my wife's A3 Quattro has been excellent in the snow and even my C4S has been surprisingly usable, as long as you don't get too carried away! Sidicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarMad Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Milo said: I'm thinking brand new S3 for April delivery I'm reading up as much as I can at the minute but first hand (unbiased) views would be very much appreciated. I drove one before I got mine and it was great fun and quick especially up to 60 and around town felt like a right little terrier. It did have a bit of an issue with understeer though, I did a back to back with the 330i I ended up getting and the two felt very different the latter feeling much more balanced. But the decisions could have gone either way but the nearly new BMW had better spec and there weren't any used S3's about at the time (and no sportback). But the S3 would be a better all round car and offer greater flexibility and its a bit smaller which seems to be what you are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazza_g Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 garcon said: From a Subaru, sorry Dacia, point of view it goes something like this:Subaru Symmetrical AWD - all conquering and magnificent quattro (Torsen) - sh*t VAG Haldex - really sh*t BMW XDrive - totally f*cking useless Apparently. you forgot to mention that Nissan's ATTESA E-TS Pro is top of the tree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biscuits Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 I've found the HALDEX in the S3 (57 plate) to cope very well in the recent bad weather, the only thing (as others have mentioned) is the ground clearance and summer tyres. Biggest issue in the snow and ice are the other nob-job drivers getting in your way and causing accidents. To be honest, a set of winter tyres would have made it almost unstoppable As for HALDEX cars in the dry, i'm not that impressed, it really is more of a FWD car to drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizbit Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 bazza_g said: you forgot to mention that Nissan's ATTESA E-TS Pro is top of the tree Nothing like choosing a nice easy to remember name for that then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted January 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 Some more great info there folks, cheers. Now just need to decide on s-tronic or manual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 bazza_g said: you forgot to mention that Nissan's ATTESA E-TS Pro is top of the tree Any 4WD system that needs that many letters in the name has got to be rubbish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mb Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 I had a MkIV R32 so early Haldex and this did very in slippery conditions (tyres also wore out fairly evenly so a lot did go to the back) - some people fitted a more agressive Haldex unit but for normalish driving (I never turn off EPC & the light must have lit twice in 5 years) it works really well. I now have an RS4 so "proper" quattro & I would say this is a little better in the snow but feels a little more "agricultural" & definitely "feels" 4WD whereas the Haldex you couldn't tell just felt like a FWD car that never wheelspun/had to really worry about traction. I think the Torsen set up would allow you to go faster if you make full use of it but I think you will find Haldex fine expecially as it is an improved version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 (edited) In my opinion, once you have lived with Torsen , haldex will always be a compromise. I don't like the way you can feel haldex kick in and out. I've had Haldex in my V6 TT and it's ok as 4wd drive goes, but nowhere as good as the Torsen I've had in the S6, RS6 and Q7. Torsen is heavier and will eat more fuel, but it just works and bloody well too. When i first had my S6 I went into a round about at a stupid speed coming off a dual carrageway.. must of been close to a ton.. daft I know, anyway.. I got 4 wheel drift and wondered it I was going into the grass, but instead buried the throttle and to this day I've no doubt that quattro got me out of that mistake. It just dug in a drove me out of the slide. I don't have great faith in Haldex in that it only kicks in when it starts to feel the front wheels spin.. isn't it too late then? (and add to the fact that it's an electronic system). I could hardly ever get the wheels to spin in my 500bhp RS6, even is i gave it beans from a standing start.. that's how good Torsen is! Edited January 18, 2010 by Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon magnifique Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 In truth, with a few differences in the detail, I think the latest incarnations of Torsen and the Subaru AWD systems are pretty similar. I don't think I've driven a car with Haldex (or a similar part time system), but I certainly prefer the idea of full time AWD if I'm going to have 4wd at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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