Torsen vs Haldex

[Mollox]

You won't get the front wheels of a remapped S3 (haldex) to spin in the dry (barring a loose road surface, maybe) so no chance in a 2.0t

[Scotty]

"can Audi justifiably put the Quattro badge on a car fitted with the Haldex system?"

Yes

"I could`t get the front wheels to spin up"

That's because of the above hence justifying the name.

With Haldex were not talking about something that steps in when the fronts are spinning. The computer detects a rotational difference between the fronts and rears and reacts within 1/8 of a wheel revolution. Imagine how quick that is at even 30 mph.

Haldex on VW (4motion) and Audi (quattro) has diluted the VAG reputation for AWD systems as it's quattro (Torsen) that made it. However the Haldex systems are definately not an embarassment to the name and do their job well .... but IMHO just not as well as Torsen.

Is it a 4WD system? 100% yes.

It's a permanently available AWD system. The key word in the literature is "available".

[cruiser647]

Haldex on VW (4motion)

[pedant mode] The VW Passat (4Motion) and the Phaeton (4Motion) are infact quattros due to the longitudinal engine layout. Branded as 4Motion due to being VW's [pedant mode off]

[scillyisles]

When people start talking about it being twitchy or feeling a surge as the rears kick in mid corner it puts me off. I never seem to get above 30mph these days but on those occasions when I want to, I don't much like the idea of surges or twitches

I could be being over cautious but I'm sure a test drive would answer it either way.

As it is, I had a good pour over a Sportback yesterday and I'm not sure it ticks all the boxes for what I need.

If I'm buying a quattro car I want to know it's going to be nothing other than solid in how the system behaves when driving, errrr, enthusiastically

I have driven both Haldex and Torsen VAG cars and tbh this talk of twitches and surges on Haldex cars is news to me. I find Torsen is better for the snow as it is full time AWD particularly when you are trying to set off. The Haldex however is very good when driving sportily as the rear shift of torque really helps in high speed cornering control.

[Scotty]

[pedant mode] The VW Passat (4Motion) and the Phaeton (4Motion) are infact quattros due to the longitudinal engine layout. Branded as 4Motion due to being VW's [pedant mode off]

Was true but the Passat is transverse these days isn't it ????

[Chris_B]

Just a side note - all this is academic to the extent that even a Torsen-equipped system can conspire against you. I've had two attempts at an off in as many days in the RS 6!

The first one was definately my fault. I was playing, with ESP in sportmode and took a sharp 90 degree right-hander at about 40 mph in 2nd gear and gave it a massive bootful of throttle. The back end came out so damn quickly it was like it teleported there. On a 90 degree bend I did about 150 degrees. Luckily it's a corner I chose deliberately becaus eit's as flat as a fart, with wide verges and you can see beforehand that there's nothing else coming, so it was a safe palce to experiment. I instinctively stuck on some opposite lock and that was when I realsied that "ESP sportmode" doesn't back the throttle off, so with right foot still mashed down, I was still lighting up the rears. With nose pointing into the verge, I did the sensible thing and stabbed the brakes knowing that this wakes ESP back up and brings things back into line. I probably scrubbed my speed down to about 5 mph, but it did come back pointing the right way.

Second one was cold tyres this morning, and if truth be told they're probably a little bit too pumped up for cold weather use - I should let a PSI or two out of them all until it warms up. I had ESP fully on, and wasn't hooning it, just making good progress, and all of a sudden the back end's trying to overtake me again. Another opposite lock instinct, but this time off the brakes and ESP cut the engine power. It didn't bloody stop the back end getting loose in the first place though, and it made a right hash of getting back into line - it pendulumed (is that even a word?) a couple of times with me putting opposite lock on each time to keep reasonably to my side of the road.

I wonder if I've got salt and mud and crap in the ABS sensors, and that's why it's been a bit twitchy? The drilled holes it he brake discs are full, so possibly I suppose. I guess I should get my pressure washer's swan-neck nozzle out underneath it at some point.

So, cold weather tyres, regular cleaning (any would be an improvement at the minute!) and a bit of respect for cold rubber (this is why the lack of a proper TPM on new cars annoys me!) are undoubtedly far more important than Torsen or Haldex!

[DukeDesmo]

You won't get the front wheels of a remapped S3 (haldex) to spin in the dry (barring a loose road surface, maybe) so no chance in a 2.0t

Indeed, my 3.2 won't spin the wheels except for a quick 'chirp' in launch mode, yet the (less powerful and FWD) TDI A3 that I had as a courtesy car for the day was wheelspinning and torque steering like a 1980's XR3.

Call the Haldex 4WD, AWD, 2WD, whatever you want but it works, I couldn't cope daily with the dynamics of the FWD A3 that I tried...

Edited January 20, 2010 by DukeDesmo

[garcon magnifique]

Just a side note - all this is academic to the extent that even a Torsen-equipped system can conspire against you. I've had two attempts at an off in as many days in the RS 6! ....

Time to sell it and buy a 3.0TDI Q7!

[Scotty]

Just a side note - all this is academic to the extent that even a Torsen-equipped system can conspire against you. I've had two attempts at an off in as many days in the RS 6!

I'd sue Audi for making a product that doesn't defy the laws of physics

[Chris_B]

I like Scotty's idea more than Garcon's idea!

As an aside, I had a bananamobile S4 Avant S-Tronic last night to play with, and I really quite like it. Obviously nothing like the lazy torque of the RS 6, but it goes like a stabbed rat from a standing start, and the noise it makes on gear changes is just incredible - it sounds like a gunshot as it backpressures for the half a second it takes to swap gears. Amazing!

One with Drive Select dampers and sport diff might be quite nice, certainly feels like it would handle better than the RS 6 and it's not that often you really need that turn of speed above 100 mph...

[Dave]

certainly feels like it would handle better than the RS 6 and it's not that often you really need that turn of speed above 100 mph...

Thats the problem nowadays Chris... it's very difficult to use performance on the public roads today: one, because it so busy and two, because if you do you get nabbed by camera's/traffic police.

Hence my venture into the world of comfort

[Merlot]

Mate, you really do need to go and drive a few cars. Mark 1 TT was on Haldex generation 1 and the first year or so of Mark 2 TT was on gen 2. Current TT and A3/S3 are on gen 4 (Audi never used gen 3) and it is great (as is Golf R which is getting rave reviews). Sure a B8 S4 is a better car (I would guess) than an S3 Sportback but having come to the latter from a B6 S4 Avant, I am happy.

Bear in mind also that Haldex is a 4WD solution for transverse engine layout cars so the engine does not hang out front like it does on Torsen quattro cars. Could help with the handling.

[satlink]

I really have no idea how either system works, but:

I drive about 6o miles (2 x 30 miles each way) most working days along:

1) An un-adopted road, about 2 miles

2) A B road about 6 miles

3) A main dual carriageway A road about 20 miles

4) town / city roads.

Normally I use my A8 4.2 q D3.

I live in Scotland and endure (love?) rain, snow, ice, wind, fog, mud covered B roads (thanks farmer jack), pot holes (thanks aberdeenshire council)

My A8 has had a bit of a warranty issue for the last week and I have had to drive around in a loaner TT 3.2 Q (59 registered)

All I can say is that after the driving an A8 the TT is simply SCARY. traction (lack off) was scary, joining the A90 in the wet was really scary (wheels struggling for traction), roads with ice or snow were treated with utmost care due to the TT handling being truly scary.

I normally have my partner in the car for these journeys into work. She normally falls asleep in the A8, in the TT she was bolt upright and suggesting we asked Audi to swop us into something else.....

I have no idea if the Quattro system is different in an A8 compared to a TT, but believe me the A8 system works and gives (my partner and I ) confidence, the system in the TT just does not compare.

Just a quick footnote: We have had ice, snow and generally nasty road conditions so far this year, the A8 has never put a foot wrong.

[stivans]

To state the facts, Quattro (Audi A4 and higher) is a full-time AWD system with center differential. Haldex (Audi A3 & TT, VW, Opel, Volvo, SAAB, Bugatti Veyron, next Lamborghini Diablo) and x-Drive (BMW) are modern incarnations of the PART-TIME AWD systems where the secondary wheels are engaged "on demand" by elaborated software actuating clutches instead of the driver or some mechanical device (visco-coupling e.g.). It seems that one software is better than the other, I've seen those videos, but latest versions of Haldex 4 are miles ahead of say Haldex 2. I test-drived Volvo s40 T5 AWD some years ago and the performance of the then Haldex 2 was less than convincing. Therefore I opted for the 2WD model which was much more predictable in its handling. One month ago I tested the new S60 T6 with Haldex 4 and I couldn't believe the leap. I also drove as an alternative choice (yes my favorite shopping) Audi A4 Quattro 2.8 V6 and in my experience, Haldex won. Stable as a rock in turns, hard acceleration with no wheelspins, all what I would expect from an AWD. The argument that Quattro with center differential is full-time as opesed to the "part-timers" has less relevance nowdays as the modern on-demand systems can be programmed to engage the secondary axel most of the time, except in tight turns, reverse etc. Full-time systems have the problem that if the center dif is open one spinning wheel leaks the torque of the whole drivetrain, so they are worse than 2WD in such conditions. Torsen can help but only if some minimal resistance is provided by one of the axels.

[PetrolDave]

Full-time systems have the problem that if the center dif is open one spinning wheel leaks the torque of the whole drivetrain, so they are worse than 2WD in such conditions. Torsen can help but only if some minimal resistance is provided by one of the axels.

Which is why EBD is fitted.

[shao_khan]

I know it's never going to wheelspin and leave me stranded at wet junctions like the old one did and also I know how it behaves and feels in corners (very solid).

Now I'm sure I would learn to understand how the Haldex system on an S3 behaves but a lot of what's been written seems to undermine the very reasons I wanted quattro in the first place.

I need to get a test drive organised but it'll need to be unaccompanied I think......

When I had my S3 you could spin the wheels in the damp, but only if you were trying hard, living around MK the whole place if full of slippery road junctions and fast chicanes (Roundabouts I think theyre called) and the car was very capable. I'm very much of the opinion that the difference between the two systems in most day to day use is fairly negligable, with the haldex giving you better economy for all the times you dont need awd - so thats about 90% of your driving I'd guess.

I didnt like the auto version of the S3 Ive driven back to back I'd have the manual any time, my TT is an auto and while I like the lazy option - I'm really wishing that I'd looked for a manual.

[Scotty]

I lit up all four on my Torsen assisted S4 ..... but that was at Santa Pod.

My MrkI TT, with what I guess is now a very dated Haldex controller, left me stranded a number of times. It because second nature that when I was about to pull out quickly I'd turn the ESP off.