Mike Tyson in 2011

[NewNiceMrMe]

I'm pretty sure there'll be plenty of people on here who witnessed Mike Tyson in his prime. I'll be far from the only one.

However, there will also be equally as many people who associate him with the rage, mental instability and criminal intent for which he became known when his career peaked and ultimately went into a long and tormented decline.

So, I thought a good few of you might be interested to read something about Mike Tyson in 2011.

A few will know that in 2009 he suffered the loss of his 4 year old daughter, Exodus. She died in a tragic accident when her neck was caught in a rope on a treadmill - strangling her. Tyson has never been the same man. It combined with the relative infancy of his relationship with his now wife, Kiki.

In the less than 2 years that has followed he has become a very different man indeed - in more ways than one as he now weighs almost half as much as he did.

Well he agreed to be interviewed by a very well respected journalist for the New York Times, by the name of Daphne Merkin. Lots of fans of boxing, as in the really hardcore element that watch fights that are pretty boring and no-one in the right mind would be interested, knew this interview was coming and were looking forward to it because of what it promised to reveal.

It promised to offer a window on the world of Mike Tyson as we'd never seen it before - in many respects it would tell the boxing world if Tyson was still Tyson, or if the man was finally at peace with himself.

It didn't disappoint.

If you put the time into reading this (it is long) you'll be amazed at how one so troubled can become, well, I'll let you find out for yourself...

The Suburbanization of Mike Tyson

Edited March 27, 2011 by MrMe

[Milo]

That's a great article.

I grew up watching Tyson fight and to me, he was a hero. In his prime, he was unstoppable. He was an animal; when he got in the ring it was like watching a lion unleash its aggression. His speed matched that of fighters half his weight and he seemed invincible. Not many people had a chance to land a punch on him but those that landed, were brushed off like they never happened.

Sadly it was success and the excess it brought that were his undoing; losing his title to Buster Douglas was merely a symptom of the meltdown he was going through.

Lewis in his prime vs Tyson is his prime would have been a gross mis-match. Tyson would have destroyed him.

Was he a good boxer? I'm not so sure. Was he a good fighter? One of the very, very best. He was as raw a fighter as you'll ever see in the ring, a proper street fighter. I daresay Evander Holyfield will vouch for what an animal he was.

But we all grow up and if he's trying to right the wrongs and be at peace with himself and the world, fair play to him.

[NewNiceMrMe]

Hmm, whilst I agree with the first paragraph entirely....I can't agree with the next two.

See, on a lot of the boxing forums in particular, few would have him inside their Top 10 Heavyweights of all time.

I actually have him at No. 10.

The reasons take some going through so I'll put my argument forward briefly.

You're right - he was an animal with an aggression and brute force that few could match. However, his boxing skill was incredibly low. His defence was non-existent. His power was undisputed, without doubt. With Tyson it was all about the intensity of the attack. That does of course mean you could say he was a great 'fighter' rather than great boxer - but I still have him low in my order because, as harsh as this might sound to some, he didn't actually fight too many good boxers.

His first 25 fights would have most people looking at the list of the opponents and thinking 'who?' - and they'd be right to do so.

He got his fight for the WBC title (his first) against Trevor Berbick after beating Ratliff and Ribalta...and most people would still say 'who?' - but they were the low quality of opponents at the time. Berbick was average, but little more.

After that he met James "Bonecrusher" Smith for a unification fight (WBA and WBC) and he won that by an often forgotten Unanimous Decision - not a KO. Smith was in his prime and could be classed as a 'good' if somewhat lumbering boxer. But Tyson couldn't KO him.

After that came Thomas, Tucker, Biggs and then a total mismatch against Larry Holmes. Now Holmes was a truly world class fighter (and higher in my list than Tyson), but he was years and years past it and it should never have been allowed to happen.

Then came Tubbs. Poor. Then came another bloke beyond his best - Michael Spinks. He basically gave up in the first round and it has since been said he didn't even want to be in there but had no choice because he needed the money.

Then we have Bruno. An average boxer at best. A very fit and physically outstanding man, with a heart too, but as boxer he was very limited.

Then Williams. Then Buster Douglas - the loss.

The thing is, the division wasn't amazingly strong. I wouldn't debate it was stronger than it is today, but Tyson in his prime didn't really meet anyone else in their prime.

Holyfield was far, far, far superior as a boxer - and beat him twice of course (with less body parts on one occasion as we all know).

My main disagreement though would be a prime Tyson versus a prime Lewis. That's because most boxing fans have Lewis their Top 5 of all time greats at Heavyweight. What he did, and how he controlled fights, is acknowledged a lot more Stateside than it his here - but he fought much much tougher opponents and in my opinion Lewis would have taken Tyson apart (as he eventually did of course, but I think it'd have been just as crushing earlier).

I'm not minimising his stature - he was a great but of a different kind. He was great (and devastatingly bad) for the sport. But when you look at the Heavyweights that have lived and played the ultimate sport, it can often be appreciated how easily he can slip down most Top 10's.

This, for example, was my last list (written 4 years ago) and I still stand by it today.

1 Muhammed Ali

2 Joe Louis

3 George Foreman

4 Lennox Lewis

5 Larry Holmes

6 Evander Holyfield

7 Jack Dempsey

8 Rocky Maricano

9 Joe Frazier

10 Tyson

The really interesting thing here is that almost all the Top 10 lists on boxing forums are the same fighters in different positions. Tyson is often at 15-20, sometimes 10-11 etc, but I have never seen him above position no. 7 (from memory).

People like Ezzard Charles, Sonny Liston etc often break into the list to oust him from 10th, but the top 5 are nearly always the same.

The top 2 never change. In my experience almost everyone has Ali and Louis there, with about 80/20 in favour of Ali. Personally I cannot even begin to fathom how anyone can't have him at No.1, but it's all about opinion of course. I try to look at the people they fought and the era they fought in - as well as the pressures they faced - and when all of those are combined I should really have Ali at position 1 to 10 and then put everyone one after that. He is that far ahead of everyone in my opinion.

Lewis beat some excellent fighters in a very difficult era indeed - and he beat them all well. He also did what only 2 others have done - regain the title twice (McCall and Rahmann). He is in a very elite club in that respect. Then there is the fact that one of those he beat in their absolute prime was a certain Evander Holyfield - the only problem is that the judges robbed him in the first encounter (one of those judges actually said they thought Holyfield landed more punches, despite the stats showing that Lewis landed more than twice as many as Holyfield!).

However, Tyson was the greatest of the aggressives. For sheer insanity of punching, tactics and will to win quickly - he was unmatched. I tend to look back on him as a superb entertainer who lost his way badly and needed someone to put the arm around him. After that he did much to be very ashamed of, but I am delighted to see he is back to the man he once was (because it should be remembered that in his early days he was a very humble, polite and well mannered man).

My abiding memory of Tyson was a little known episode in a gym that HBO keep pulling off YouTube whenever it makes it up there.

Before he fought Bruno for the first time he went to where Bruno was training to try to wind him up. At the time Bruno was doing a TV stint where he had to hit a punch ball hooked up to a power measure of some kind. It measured the weight of the punch. Bruno was, as most will know, known as Bomber - because he did hit hard when he landed.

Tyson saw this and watched Bruno give the machine it all - he recorded just over 400kg of punching power. Imagine being hit by 400kg.

He stepped up, pushed the analyst-fella out of the way and punched the ball.

His punch came in at 698kg and he said "You're getting that Frank, go home".

Edited March 27, 2011 by MrMe

[Milo]

Without the rose-tinted glasses of youth, I would admit he couldn't be held in the same esteem as Marciano, Ali, Frazier et al.

But he guy had a raw aggression, strength and a primeval mindset that I've never seen before or since in a boxer. He was best suited to prison brawls so as a boxer he was poor, but a purebred fighting machine, no-one comes close for me. Hence in his prime, I think he would have troubled many a great heavyweight. I've been watching clips of him 1985-1988 tonight and he is a proper evil bastard.

[Scotty]

Nice piece.

I wonder if this is the real guy now or if he'll stray in the future. Either ways it's good to see that he appears to have been domesticated from the wild animal he was.

[Luke]

I think with all boxers a lot of opinions are made by the style of the boxer. Ali was so smooth, fast, confident, sublime he will always be the king of heavyweights. Tyson had such an effect on the boxing scene with good and bad opponents that the general public become hooked. He was front and back page news for his fighting and devastating KO's. A troubled kid from the ghetto saved by boxing. For a short time he was the most explosive 'fighter' most people had ever seen and became an instant hero. Not a boxer but more a circus act.

Ill read the piece later, ta for posting up.

[Andrew]

Interesting article. I've not really been following boxing for many years but I did grow up watching it and especially Tyson. I was surprised reading MrMes post about how worthless some of the opponents were. In my mind, at the age of what I suppose would be 10 (?) when he fought Spinks it was going to be THE fight - that was at least my recollection from then. I had no idea he was past it.

It was exciting to watch but of course then became very sad as people started to get the better of him. I'd never thought about it hard enough to think the people he fought later in his career were just better boxers.

And what is even more saddening for me is that I didn't even come close to appreciating Lennox Lewis. I put this down mostly to the phenomena of pay-per-view which I'd never bother with - tried it once, Hatton lost!

Why doesn't David Haye make the list?

And I loved the Tyson and Bruno story too. I'd love to have seen Frank's face after that - he was renowned for having a big punch wasn't he?

[Torino101]

As much as I aknowledge everything you say MrMe - It would be intersting to see a top 10 list of boxers (in their prime), that other boxers would least like to face. I suspect Tyson would easily make the top three if not pole......

[NewNiceMrMe]

Haye would make the Top 30. Not a hope in hell, at this moment in time anyway.

If he was to fight and beat both K's, then he might make top 30. He doesn't have the heavyweight career to merit it.

Cruiser weights...that's a different matter, he'd be top 15 of most lists but again he didn't fight very man top quality fighters - but you can only beat what is put in front of you, as they say.

Torinos point is a good one. Thing is, most very good boxers would take Tyson in his prime, cleanly the top 10. It's an interesting thought though.

[Andrew]

Was Holyfield that good too? I have no idea why (ignorance most likely) but I thought he didn't fight that many greats either.

I'm out of my depth - I'm going further inshore ...

[NewNiceMrMe]

Holyfield was outstanding. Far, far better than Haye at his natural weight and in a different league at heavyweight. All Time Great - without doubt (ATG's being the common terms for a collection of boxers that make the 'Hall of Fame' without any debate, and have been The Ring magazine Champions of Champions.

For example - Hatton will never be an ATG. He is, however, a future Hall of Famer. Calzaghe on the other hand is a Hall of Famer and without doubt an ATG - and in some peoples minds one of the elite ATG's. The only people who doubt JC's credentials are those who think he ducked Jones and Hopkins at their peak, when the truth is probably the other way around. A lot of people thought he beat a withered Hopkins; but as has been proven since...Hopkins went on to batter Jones and numerous others.

Hatton was unfortunate to live in the age of two of the greatest boxers we will ever see - Pacquiao and Mayweather. In fact there is a huge amount of debate at present about them both potentially becoming the 2 greatest boxers at any weight. Personally, I'll always have Ali at No.1, but I wouldn't argue with Mayweather and Pac at No.2 and 3 (in that order). We're very lucky to be in a period where they've both been around - but I doubt we'll ever see them get in the ring together, unfortunately.

If it hadn't been for the two mentioned above, Hatton would have dominated for as long as he wanted to - drug taking habits and alcholol fondness permitting. He wrecked his reputation with his out of ring antics and doesn't even have a license now.

Going back to your point though, yes Holyfield was the consumate boxer. Incredibly difficult to hit in his prime and astonishing accuracy. A fairly nice guy too. It's just a crying shame that he has damaged his legacy with his recent attempts at a comeback. Mind you, it's nothing like as much of a travesty as the damage Roy Jones Jnr has done to his reputation. That man was a machine, and an unstoppable one at that ...... but he just didn't know when to stop after Calzaghe had completely outclassed him (though he was finished 2 years before that anyway). Jones was one of the best ever - a top 5 man in all divisions.

p.s. I cannot abide Hopkins so any post I make about him makes me grit my teeth when it sounds like a compliment. A nasty, nasty racist pig who should have been banned from the sport long ago.

Edited March 29, 2011 by MrMe

[Andrew]

You know a lot about this stuff - a good read!

[Torino101]

As such - I'd be interested to see your 'Top 10 boxers of all time' as opposed to heavyweights.

Would be a very very difficult list. As suddenly you have to feature the likes of Mayweather, JC, Pacquiao, Sugar Ray Robinson, dare i say ( McGuigan? Benn? Eubank? Collins? or is that patriotism clouding my judgment?)

[NewNiceMrMe]

Good god, whilst the first 3 would feature I'm afraid none of the others would be in my top 30 or 40.

Eubank is the only real elite fighter in that bunch, but even he couldn't get near Calzaghe. Both Eubank and Benn did a joint interview a few years back that was superb. In it, Benn admitted Eubank was the better boxer and that he was a brawler that often got lucky - but a very gutsy and entertaining one at that. His battles with Eubank would make my top 20 fights of all-time, but not the boxers themselves. Eubank then said, with none of his normal arrogance, that he wasn't anywhere near as good as Calzaghe. He actually laughed and said "No sir, no sir, don't insult Mr Calzaghe. I was very very good, excellent in fact, but he is just far superior to me, Nigel and everyone else you care to name". He was proven right too.

McGuigan is a difficult one - because for me he could have been high up on any list - but he took a fight in the wrong City, at the wrong time, in the wrong condition. Steve Cruz had just about everything on his side and that fight could have killed McGuigan. Had he not taken that it'd not have tarnished him because Cruz wasn't anything special - and who knows what he would have gone on to do.

Collins. Hmm. Let's just say that's a big no from me. He keeps blaming Roy Jones Jnr for denying him his biggest pay day - but the reality is he should think himself lucky Jones didn't want to get out of bed. He would have annihilated him. People often quote the fact he beat Eubank and Benn but they weren't the fighters they once were by then. My biggest gripe with him is that he ducked Calzaghe, no matter what anyone says.

He kept whining on about Calzaghe being a nobody when he knew fine well that no-one wanted to fight him (Calzaghes biggest problem was that none of the 'names' wanted to step in the ring with him because of how dangerous he was). I also didn't like his antics around the first Eubank fight. Mind you, his mind games worked and Eubank was a beaten man before he stepped in the ring.

On Calzaghe though - heres a thought for you. Everyone, bar no-one, avoided him for years. Jones, Hopkins, all of them. Yet Eubank stepped in when Collins backed out of the fight - he was game to get in with the best.

In those years, Calzaghe was completely untouchable. His hand speed, at that weight, would rival Khan, easily. He still holds the record for the most punches thrown in a single round. Even more impressively though, by the time he was fighting to unify divisions - he was fighting with one hand. His right was completely fecked for years. Yet he managed to beat Hopkins after getting off the floor, and Jones too (thought the latter was always going to happen).

Joe was always referred to as a 'slapper' and not a boxer because his hands were brittle and he had to angle his punches side on; thereby almost appearing to slap people.

However, Jones said, after the fight, "Yeah, he's a slapper. But those slaps hurt, I can tell you."

I'll think about my Top 10 of all time. It needs revising a little...

Edited March 31, 2011 by MrMe

[stooH]

Interesting that you mention Khan, how good do you think he can be?

[Arch]

Aiiiiii is a proper boxer, innit?

[stooH]

Whatever happened to the prince last I heard he'd piled on the pounds and crashed his Range Rover, used to love watching him ponce around the ring

[NeilB]

Yup apparently he's a right porker now, found it hard to believe it was the same man.

[Arch]

Yup apparently he's a right porker now, found it hard to believe it was the same man.

I'm failing to see much of a difference.

[Maxyboy]

Jeeeesus!! Is that a fat suit? If so, it needs ironed!!

[stooH]

I never thought I'd have anything in common with Prince Naseem. It appears we're now in the same weight category though

[Tipex]

I never thought I'd have anything in common with Prince Naseem. It appears we're now in the same weight category though

I still wouldn't want to take a punch off him!