Gearbox woes?

[fenn]

Recently took the S8 in to the garage,as there was a small amount of oil beginning to show on the garage floor -(not much, butr the car only does 3-4000 miles a year maximum now, and I like to keep it in tiptop condition)

They diagnosed a slight leak from the gearbox, so they fitted a new rear gearbox oil seal,offside front driveshaft oil seal,gearbox sump gasket, and obviously new transmision fluid.

As soon as i drove it home I could hear a slight "whine", especially in the lower gears (not too easy to hear with mine as the quad exhaust can get a bit "shouty" if you put your foot down)

Went out on a "test" drive -and, when coming to rest in Drive, the car was changing down to Ist -it shouldn't do this in Drive,as it's only supposed to pull away in 2cnd -only goes in to Ist if you kick down hard,or of course use the manual option.

Then,whilst stopping at a junction, suddenlt ALL the gear indicators on the dashboard lit up at once, not just the" D" symbol, and, though the car was in Drive it barely managed to pull away(just as if it had a manual gearbox with a really badly slipping clutch).Stopping and switching off and then back on and evrything was back to normal for a couple of miles, then coming to another stop it did the same thing agin.

It's back in the garage now and they're investigating (they're not an Audi dealer, but a small local garage that I've used for over 20 years and so I know they wont try and rip me off - they can however, self- admittedly run out of ideas about a problem.

They're currently draining and refilling the gearbox, as the first option to try, but I'd welcome any of the experts on here's views.

I know the gearbox can be a problem with the S8 -min'e a 2001 360bhp car - done 140,00 -i've owned it for the last 8 years and since 60,000 miles -canbelts etc done twice, always serviced correctly, maintained regardless of cost etc etc. I just hope that my beloved S8 is not suffering a terminal gearbox fault -I've often said that, being a decidedly "old fart". I expected the S8 to outlive me and will never sell it, so I hope I can find the problem and rectify it.

Any answers would be most welcome

Thanks

[Botang]

Ouch, that sounds painful, unfortunately common though. try getting in chap with a guy called TozoM8 on quattroworld.com and he may be be able to give you some guidance

[cruiser647]

Good to hear from you Mr Fenn.

Been a while!

Sounds like it could be low on gearbox fluid? Presume they've used the proper stuff?

Could also be over-filled, so higher pressures than normal, leading to odd gear selections>

Might be worth changing the MAF for a new one (Bosch only) and filling the gearbox again? I think you have to do it level and when fluid comes in certain gears and stuff, it's done???

Hope it's not the gearbox!

[cruiser647]

Mr Botang too! How are you geezer!?

[fenn]

Thanks for your help -good to "speak" to you again - don't post much because I use the S8 so little now -as i said -3 - 4000miles per year absolute maximum, and that's with deliberately doing a few lomgish trips to utilise it. - but I do read the forum regularily so it's good to see these fabulous motors are still getting the respect they deserve

I hope to get the gearbox fixed, no matter what it costs or I have to do, as i don't imagine I'll ever get rid of the car now -it's not worth a lot in true market terms i guess, so what someone would realistically expect to pay is nothing like what I'd be persuaded to sell it for, so I'm kind of stuck with it, and very happy to be so!

We've been toying with the idea of moving abroad lately ( at-least -my wife has - I've long known that my role is stictly to endorse any such decisions and just obey!), either to Majorca, Menorca, or possibly Naples (Florida -not Italy).

Wherever we go. i think I'll be sorely tempted to ship the S9 out along with us -having had it for so long now (far and way the longest time I've ever kept any car for), it would be like leaving a well loved and rspected relative , and I'd probably" fret" that it was being looked after properly if I left it behind.

[Adrian E]

All the DIS lights on indicates limp mode - it goes into 3rd gear I believe and stays there. Mine was doing this due to a faulty F125 switch I had replaced recently. If there were no pre-existing fault with the box then simply replacing the fluid lost from dropping the sump shouldn't be an issue. Did they change the gearbox filter while they were in there? The correct oil is key - there's a similar story on the A8 parts forum of a recent gearbox distaster do the garage you use know the correct procedure for filling and checking the level in the box? it's quite specific, so if not followed may give you these symptoms.

[fenn]

thanks for the info Adrian -wher can i find the info, on the specific proceedure and the correct type and amount of fluid to use?

[RichardW]

This is what you need. audipages A8 Automatic Transmission Servicing I did it myself on my D2 facelift S8 about 5 years ago with the help of my son (he did it twice on his D2 A8). You must use the correct oil and the level must be exactly correct. The oil needs changing every 40K if you want the gearbox to last.

[Ian_C]

Long time no see Fenn - welcome back to the fold - although of course not good given the circumstances! Like Richards now departed 1999/2000 S8, yours was certainly immaculate, and the quads sounded epic under the bridges in Milton Keynes!! Hope you are in good health even if the D2 isn't.

[IT_S8]

A whine immediately after fiddling with fluid is usually low fluid - The oil pump in the gearbox attempts to suck up fluid, but gets air instead which makes the noise. The noise may get less the further you drive, ie as it warms up. The transmission fluid is very specific and has to be filled at a precise temperature so it is expanded the correct amount. If its filled when too hot for example, you can end up with too little fluid in. The final drive seal on the box usually fails on these as its placed just above one of the cats and dries out over the years, shrinking and then dropping a bit of oil - very common.

I've got plenty of local garages I'd trust to work on my car in general, but if I were to have a fluid change, i'd only ever use a gearbox specialist who knows the ZF HP24a boxes as they'll know all this stuff without thinking about it....

140,000 miles is however probably a record for an S8, I dont think I've known a D2 make that mileage on a single box....

If it were my car, I'd assess how confident the garage was on the exact procedure, and if not 100% convinced, get it down to a ZF specialist who may be able to fill it correctly and it might just burst back into life....

[SINGH]

S8AOC on the A8 Parts forum is on 180k on his original box Ian!

[IT_S8]

Has he had it from new?.... ie, is he sure its not had one fitted...

180K is, frankly, unbelievable...

I've known them go as low as 40K and be done under the original warranty...

[SINGH]

He's had it for a very long time and done over 100k on it, but it hasn't had a new box according to him. He brought it from Oscar Goldman.

[mattsimis]

My 1998 S8 has 178k miles on it but on its third box. However aside from the original box both replacements were used parts with their own miles on them (one was done in my ownership, only last week, 88k miles on it from A8 Parts).

To the OP, sounds like the Garage you used didnt put enough gearbox oil in it. It will take near 9litres. If they filled it in the pan and said the book says 4litre (which it does) then left it, they grossly underfilled the box. I have seen 2 garages do this.

Ive done the fluid change myself 3 times now, super easy, but you do need to read the AudiPages guide.

[fenn]

well - took the excellent instructions off the A8 technical page in to my garage,and they've done the job again - I've just picked it up, and ceratinly the "whine", whcih was quite noticeable, is now gone as far as I ca tell.On the couple of miles journey home, the box chenged as smoothly as ever - i will make sure that I give it a bit more of a run in the next few days, so FINGERS CROSSED, I'm hoping that no damage has been done.

On the subject of the "sealed for life" debate, -i've always had my gearbox oil changed -I see from the S8 file that it was changed at 76,000, and then at 125,000, and then at 135.000 , and lastly at 139,000 (the latest). As I now do so little mileage, my feeling is no to have it done every year as a precaution

Also -On checking the file, I see that whils I've owned the car, I've had the cambelt and water pump etc, done at 70,000 - 114,000 -and 136,000 .

If the gearbox stays O.K, and I do hope so, maybe it's an argument for having the oil changed regularily - don't know if also having the cambelt done has anything to do with it at all.

At the dreaded risk of tempting fate, if the gearbox is O.K. then it will have done 140,000 on the original box(at least I presume so -the car had done 60,000 when I bought it so I don't think it had had a gearbox before then, and I've not replaced it)

As I say -please everybody keep their FINGERS CROSSED -if not for me personally, then for my Good Old Bus to keep trundling on!

[fenn]

well - took the excellent instructions off the A8 technical page in to my garage,and they've done the job again - I've just picked it up, and ceratinly the "whine", whcih was quite noticeable, is now gone as far as I ca tell.On the couple of miles journey home, the box chenged as smoothly as ever - i will make sure that I give it a bit more of a run in the next few days, so FINGERS CROSSED, I'm hoping that no damage has been done.

On the subject of the "sealed for life" debate, -i've always had my gearbox oil changed -I see from the S8 file that it was changed at 76,000, and then at 125,000, and then at 135.000 , and lastly at 139,000 (the latest). As I now do so little mileage, my feeling is no to have it done every year as a precaution

Also -On checking the file, I see that whils I've owned the car, I've had the cambelt and water pump etc, done at 70,000 - 114,000 -and 136,000 .

If the gearbox stays O.K, and I do hope so, maybe it's an argument for having the oil changed regularily - don't know if also having the cambelt done has anything to do with it at all.

At the dreaded risk of tempting fate, if the gearbox is O.K. then it will have done 140,000 on the original box(at least I presume so -the car had done 60,000 when I bought it so I don't think it had had a gearbox before then, and I've not replaced it)

As I say -please everybody keep their FINGERS CROSSED -if not for me personally, then for my Good Old Bus to keep trundling on!

[Tatlow]

It's my turn to enter the fray with a knackered gearbox. My S8 (2001) has just passed 155k miles, and I've had it since 65k with a full service history - so it's the first 'box. It's a real shame, but the company that is reconditioning says that they do quite a lot of these and the whole 'sealed for life' idea is a crock of shite. Apparently, if I had had the oil changed from time to time, this is unlikely to have happened - they said eventually the tiny tubes that the oil goes through get clogged up, and then it's just a matter of time before it breaks down.

So, a word of warning for all those A8/S8 auto drivers out there, who don't think their gearbox doesn't need any TLC - go for the prevention-is-better-than-cure approach! £2k is the pricetag for a full reconditioning, including new replacement parts. :o/

[Nollywood]

Yes, the cost of salvation is high. £2,500 is a lot of bread. The fact there have been documented failures as low as 45,000 miles is a worry. That's about two years worth of motoring. It really makes the idea of converting to manual a lot more attractive, despite the initial cost.

My 2001 S8 has covered 101,000 miles, she drives smooth, but I daren't drive on the Continent, till she's converted.

[cruiser647]

Yes, the cost of salvation is high. £2,500 is a lot of bread. The fact there have been documented failures as low as 45,000 miles is a worry. That's about two years worth of motoring. It really makes the idea of converting to manual a lot more attractive, despite the initial cost.

My 2001 S8 has covered 101,000 miles, she drives smooth, but I daren't drive on the Continent, till she's converted.

What a load of rubbish!!

Drive the car.

However, go to a decent Audi indy and they will change the gearbox fluid and clean the swarfy bits for £2/300.

My 5 speed 4.2 had 201K miles when I sold it, bought at 170K. First thing I do/get done with ANY auto car is get the gearbox fluid changed.

You will notice a difference - don't wait for it to fail

[PsYcHe]

My 4.2 PF had a touch of the hunting and thumping that those models were prone to, but a fluid change when I got it at 90k and it mostly went away.. it started to come back about 130k, but another flush sorted that out.

[Nollywood]

What a load of rubbish!!

Drive the car.

However, go to a decent Audi indy and they will change the gearbox fluid and clean the swarfy bits for £2/300.

My 5 speed 4.2 had 201K miles when I sold it, bought at 170K. First thing I do/get done with ANY auto car is get the gearbox fluid changed.

You will notice a difference - don't wait for it to fail

Bro, no ones opinion is rubbish, they're all pretty valid. We're here to share ideas, and perhaps some of us can get some help from shared opinions.

I'm from an Audi background, I worked within an Audi dealership for 16 year and Mercedes for 5. I know what breaks in the various VAG models. I have seen failures even with fluid changes. And I have seen failures in recently acquired cars, with about 120,000 miles on the odo after a fluid change. Of course a fluid change is a great idea, but on a car that has never had a fluid change in over a 100,000 miles, dislodging sediment can actually work the reverse - cause premature failure.

The ZF unit in the original Audi V8 had similar issues, though it was a lot more robust than the version fitted to the D2 / D3 range. The ZF units fitted to the D2 range, particularly the FL models are the weak links. A good buddy of mine runs a 2005 Jaguar XJ series, the ZF tranny suffered catastrophic failure whilst we were on holiday in Southern France. His car is maintained regardless, he's an enthusiast, and does regular servicing. His tranny failure occured at 58,000 miles. A one-owner car, and well looked after. I ran a 2006 BMW X5 whilst still the US, and lost reverse and the lower forward gears. I only had 4th! Mileage was 73,000 miles, I'd replaced the tranny fluid three weeks prior to failure.

My point is, with our D2 tip trannies, it's not a question of "if" it fails, it's more a case of "when." If that offends you, then my apologies. My opinion still stands though.

[cruiser647]

Bro, no ones opinion is rubbish, they're all pretty valid. We're here to share ideas, and perhaps some of us can get some help from shared opinions.

I'm from an Audi background, I worked within an Audi dealership for 16 year and Mercedes for 5. I know what breaks in the various VAG models. I have seen failures even with fluid changes. And I have seen failures in recently acquired cars, with about 120,000 miles on the odo after a fluid change. Of course a fluid change is a great idea, but on a car that has never had a fluid change in over a 100,000 miles, dislodging sediment can actually work the reverse - cause premature failure.

The ZF unit in the original Audi V8 had similar issues, though it was a lot more robust than the version fitted to the D2 / D3 range. The ZF units fitted to the D2 range, particularly the FL models are the weak links. A good buddy of mine runs a 2005 Jaguar XJ series, the ZF tranny suffered catastrophic failure whilst we were on holiday in Southern France. His car is maintained regardless, he's an enthusiast, and does regular servicing. His tranny failure occured at 58,000 miles. A one-owner car, and well looked after. I ran a 2006 BMW X5 whilst still the US, and lost reverse and the lower forward gears. I only had 4th! Mileage was 73,000 miles, I'd replaced the tranny fluid three weeks prior to failure.

My point is, with our D2 tip trannies, it's not a question of "if" it fails, it's more a case of "when." If that offends you, then my apologies. My opinion still stands though.

No need for the apology old boy.

I had an original Audi V8 (4.2 not the 3.6) quattro with the 4 spd box. Had that for 18 months, then moved onto the A8 with the high mileage.

I just don't get the 'I have an S8 with 101K miles, but I won't drive it in France' idea. If you are worried about it, sell it and get another with the different ZF gearbox model. As you have said there were a few different units used.

You are right, that this particular model of ZF box was used in Audi's, BMW X's and 7's and Jag XJ & S-Types. There are many instances on the web of catastrophic failures. However, how many haven't gone wrong? We only hear of the failures.

[Nollywood]

No need for the apology old boy.

I had an original Audi V8 (4.2 not the 3.6) quattro with the 4 spd box. Had that for 18 months, then moved onto the A8 with the high mileage.

I just don't get the 'I have an S8 with 101K miles, but I won't drive it in France' idea. If you are worried about it, sell it and get another with the different ZF gearbox model. As you have said there were a few different units used.

You are right, that this particular model of ZF box was used in Audi's, BMW X's and 7's and Jag XJ & S-Types. There are many instances on the web of catastrophic failures. However, how many haven't gone wrong? We only hear of the failures.

My point of not driving my car through Europe is due risk of tranny failure whilst abroad. My selling the car, only to buy another ZF-equipped model doesn't go down well with me. A UK-spec D2 FL is still a ZF-equipped model, no better or worse than my current car. The more robust 4-speed isn't an option in an S8. However, an 01E manual certainly is. I had a clear plan from the get go that I would have a manual D2 S8, I actually began stockpiling the parts required, way before I entered D2 ownership. I've previously owned two D2 models - a '96 4,2 Quattro Sport, and a '98 S8 Quattr, and I purchased twom 01E trannies, with linkages way before owning my first D2, the '96 QS. The '96 car was faultless, the shifts were seamless (4-speed) compared to the 5-speed in both S8's. Both cars had one fluid change each whilst in my possession.

How many ZF's haven't failed in D2's? No one knows for sure, but I would say if you had 20 D2's with over 130,000 miles on the odo, the chances are those that would have had issues would be greater. Let's face it, we love our D2's, and most of us are in for the long haul in terms of ownership. FL QS / S8 with over 180,000 miles on the odo, still on the original ZF are rare, most would be in limp mode, or have had rebuilt ZF's at this point. My buddy in Boulder, Colorado, has just grounded his 2002 A8 LWB for the second time in 5 years, due to the dreaded PRNDS and availibility of 3rd gear only. He's looking at an 01E conversion, and may be in contact with Tozo shortly. He has owned his D2 from new, and followed the AudiPages oil change procedure religiously.

An 01E is maintenance-free, and as I wish to increase power output considerably in the near future, is definitely the way forward for me. I've never been an auto fan, and have converted auto's in the past to 01E / 01A. With a D2, one has no choice; there's no option to buy a manual RHD car. I love the D2 S8, hence my choice to give my own car the tranny I feel she should have left the factory with, back in 2001.

[willg60]

2000 AUDI S8 S8 Quattro 4dr Auto Saloon

Thinking about looking at the above, I called the bloke and he said he cant get lower than D?! Avoid?

I had a 98 S8 and experienced a gearbox fail, don't really want to have to go through that again, but really want another S8.

[Nollywood]

Price is reasonable, and it's one of the colors I like. Everything in life is a lottery, comrade.