clutch slippage on chip tuned 2.0TDI

[svizoman]

I have 2007 Audi A4 with 2.0TDI bre engine code. The engine produces 420Nm of torque and 170HP. The current milage is 120 kkm, the car was chipped at 110 kkm. The cluct is starting to fail, first in 6th gear, now even in 5th and 4th. The Audi replacement kit part number is 038 198 141 GX. The SACHS reapir kit part number is 3000 951 844 and the LUK is 624 3308 00.

The BRD engine code (170HP version) has this part numbers:

Audi: 038 198 141 DX

SACHS: 3000 951 872

LUK: 624 3342 00

My question is: can I use the 170HP clutch (Audi or SACHS or LUK) without of need to change dual mass flywheel and if not shuld I use Audi OEM, SACHS or LUK?

BTW I also found SACH performance clutch, part # 001424.001707, ranging at 550Nm+, but it is at the double the price of an OEM.

[Tipex]

Given the price of a dual mass flywheel, you'd be mad not to replace it while you do the clutch, 90% of the cost is the labour.

[Ian_C]

Yep do the flywheel. Mine was done with the clutch, and I wouldn't touch an S4 where the flywheel had been re-used when the clutch was done.

[svizoman]

ok let's do some basic matematic and economics:

Current car's market price = 12.000€

OEM flywheel 1.000€ (with 20% VAT)

OEM clutch kit (pressure & friction plate, release bearing) = 400€ (with 20% VAT)

labour only clutch (4,7h)*65€=305€ (with 20% VAT)

+ Audi 20% discount on labour and parts for all model older than 4 years.

+ Porsche (that's Porsche Inter - European VAG dealer) customer discount of 10% on labour.

As I was told the flywheel don't need to be changed unles it was damaged due to the slippery clutch (exposed to ubnormal temperature due to exces friction). Also don't know how long will new OEM clutch take the 420Nm of torque, it was not designet to do that. There is however stronger pressure plate for BRD engine and that is the question - will it fit on original flywheel.

Don't see the logics in changing the flywheel and don't see how is the labour 90% of the total.

Edited March 5, 2013 by svizoman

[Tipex]

A flywheel on a 2.0 TDi costs about £150-£200 to buy the part, the labour cost to fit one is the same as doing the clutch, therefore it makes sense to change it as a precaution while the clutch is being done, as it effectively means you don't pay for the labour on one or the other.

By all means pay to have the clutch changed, but don't moan if the flywheel goes a month later and you get another bill for the same price, rather than just paying the few hundred extra to begin with to get both changed.

Especially on a tuned engine, the flywheel is the weakest link and most common failiure.

[cruiser647]

It's like changing your cambelt and NOT changing the thermostat/water pump and tensioners at the same time.

Seeing as you are in there and the engine is apart, you might as well change all those bits whilst you have the chance.

[svizoman]

I would buy R8 and all would be resolved, but the money is also an issue. I can sell my 2007 A4 for 12k and buy myself a decent 2008 A4 2.0tdi with xenon/led at 15k. New A4 is also far better car, with more elegance and with far better engine. I can also go for new Opel Insignia at 20k (1 year leassing), which not only has xenon lights, but also leader seats and nav device and 19" alloy wheels, something A4 will cost 40k. Also my tuner (a friend) told me that he chipped a lot of 2.0tdis CR and 2.0cdtis with no clutc failure after the job. The CR engines provides smoother torque. I aslo must do the timing belt/water pump maintenance that will cost me 390€ at audi shop (audi super saver package for older cars). So sum that all up, I can just go with selling my car.

The OEM dual mass flywheel for my current car is 1000€ at the Audi shop (unless the service adviser for spare parts miss informed me). I don't see where did you get 200Ł price for it, unles you are refering to an aftermarket single mass flywheel that they (at the audi shop) advised me to avoid, because engine will run very roughly at idle. The PD engines don't have counter balancher shafts like new CR and beacuse of the PD caracteristics the whole car feels like a tractor.

I am just looking for a suitable (also cheap) clutch that will hold 400Nm. The SACHS as they said is far beter also the price tells that, as it sells at 300€ while LUK at 200€. Audi OEM is 400€ (it comes from SACHS production line but with Audi logo).

If the flywheel wouldn't be so pricey I woul take the whole set (clutch kit + flywheel) of the brd engine, since the flywheel fiting dimenssions are the same as for the bre engine.

Edited March 6, 2013 by svizoman

[Ian_C]

The genuine Audi dual mass flywheel is indeed pricey. The invoice that came with my S4 states 660 plus vat for the flywheel alone.

If you can sell a 2007 B7 A4 for 12,000 pounds sterling I'd probably shake their arm off. Here in England not even the mintest quattro in top spec would make 12k privately now. You mention pounds and euros - what country you based?

[Tipex]

We are talking about the 2.0 TDi here though, not an S4, it's a common engine used right across the VAG range, and the price of €1000 would be O/E parts and include fitting, and for that price in England, you'd get a new clutch kit included too.

Trust me, DMF's are the bane of my life, the sooner they do away with them the better.

Wonder what Shark charge for clutch and flywheel on a 2.0 TDi?

Edited March 6, 2013 by Tipex

[Ian_C]

I think matey boy was saying he was quoted 1000 Euros for the DMFW alone....

  svizoman said:

The OEM dual mass flywheel for my current car is 1000€ at the Audi shop

Edited March 7, 2013 by Ian_C

[Tipex]

  Ian_C said:

I think matey boy was saying he was quoted 1000 Euros for the DMFW alone....

Yes, which means either he, or the garage, are wrong, that's isn't how much a Dual Mass Flywheel costs, unless the price includes fitting.

[svizoman]

  Ian_C said:

The genuine Audi dual mass flywheel is indeed pricey. The invoice that came with my S4 states 660 plus vat for the flywheel alone.

If you can sell a 2007 B7 A4 for 12,000 pounds sterling I'd probably shake their arm off. Here in England not even the mintest quattro in top spec would make 12k privately now. You mention pounds and euros - what country you based?

I am from continental Europe so Euro rules here!

Here in my country the things are a bit different then as in the USA and I suppose also in UK. In the US the biger the car and more powerfull the engine is, the higher is the price of a used car (same principle as for a new cars).

Here is my country the facts are opposite. The 5 year old A3 (new at 22k) is more expensive than 5 year old A6 (new at 55k). Also we almost don't buy automatics, unless it is a bussines high class car and 4WD sells only to people that need AWD to get to their alpine holiday cottage. Also only BMW sells good with automatic transmission, Audi and others not so well since it is a common believe that only BMW automatic gearbox is good and doesn't need pricey maintenance. However the things has changed with the introduction of VW's DSG gearbox. Now most of VAGs (with engines above 130HP) are sold with this kind of gerabox. Also diesel is more and more popular (since the introduction of turbo direct injection diesels) and it represents 60% of the market share. If you buy petrol car then god luck selling it!

Also you must know that most countries in Euro zone have high taxes on road vehicles and in my country it depends on the base price of a new car, CO2 emissions and other terms. Also luxury cars with base price above 50k and cars with engine displacement above 5000 ccm are extra taxed. So if a new A6 with same OEM price will be sold in US at 45000$ but here it will be 65000€.

So yes my current car could be sold at 12k (advertised over internet portal), but I would get round 9k at the dealer.

[svizoman]

  Ian_C said:

I think matey boy was saying he was quoted 1000 Euros for the DMFW alone....

indeed

BTW my name is Borut, you can use my nickname svizo-man = marmot (it's not my real life nickname since I don't have it, it's the one I use on forums)

  Tipex said:

Yes, which means either he, or the garage, are wrong, that's isn't how much a Dual Mass Flywheel costs, unless the price includes fitting.

lets go again:

DMFW by etka = 1.000€

clutch kit by etka = 400€

labour for removing/installing the gearbox by elsa = 4,2h*65€ = 273€

labour reinstalling clutch kit by elsa = 0,5h*65= 32,5€

don't know what is the time interval for DMFW reinstal

I double checked the prices. I also contacted some Austrian workshop and some Germany workshop. The only difference is that Austrian VAT is 20% and Germany 16%.

All prices include 20% local VAT. Audi offers 20% discount on labour and parts, my dealer offers me extra 10% discount on labour. I can get SACHS clutch at 300€ and LUK at 200€

Edited March 7, 2013 by svizoman

[Ian_C]

Sounds about right. Bill for mine was 2000 pounds sterling including OE DMFW, slave cylinder and eight hours labour

[Tipex]

That's ridiculous, you should be paying around £1000 for clutch and flywheel on any VAG 2.0 using genuine parts, we have quite a few Passats, and Skodas with the same engine, and never paid much more than 1k

The bill for my Galaxy was £1100 and that included the slave cylinder as it's inside the gearbox and therefore prudent to change it at the same time, it also included replacing the gearbox oil as it was due, and new front bushes, all using original parts.