VW R36 - upgrades time

[Rachel]

Well, my baby is out of warranty the end of next month, there is nothing on the market close to the value for money everyday performance package of the R36, and so was wondering if the European TSN community could give me pointers to some upgrades.

 

 

I'm looking at the Haldex upgrade (the one on my R32 was epic):  http://www.goapr.com.au/products/haldex.html

 

Possibly an ECU flash for the engine if one exists - I hate not left foor braking.  APR have just released this, but not sure it's applicable to the R36:  http://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_upgrade_36fsi_med17.html

 

Does DMS or someone else do one?

 

Also contemplating a flash of the DSG brain pan: http://hp.net.au/index.php/products/dq-250

 

Lastly, a 'big brake' upgrade.  I know of a chap in Oz who has fitted Audi R8 stoppers to his R36, but I don't want to change the stock Omantys wheels if I don't have to...  Any suggestions?  Wilwood?  Brembo?  AP Racing? PFC?  or even maybe the brakes off my C63 AMG? 

 

Stock suspension is still fine, but will become KWv3 or Koni or Ohlins when replacement time comes around...

 

Any and all help appreciated :-)

Edited September 28, 2013 by Rachel

[bazza_g]

all I can say is SUPERCHARGER

 

http://www.rotrex.com/Home/Supercharger_Experience/Details?kit_id=048ab0b2-d8e1-49c8-a36b-488bd0fd68c0

[Tipex]

A remap wonmt really help much on a N/A car, might be worth having a word with Ben aka Shark, I'm sure he'll point you in the right direction, I belive he pionered the left foot braking maps too!

[Woppum]

Feel like an old grump for saying it but none of what you have listed will change the car you already have really. It's pissing money away. I would seriously consider changing rather than doing all this if I were you. If you need as estate a nice second hand c63 may be up your street ?

Just my 2p worth.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Woppum

[Rachel]

  On 9/28/2013 at 10:15 AM, Woppum said:

Feel like an old grump for saying it but none of what you have listed will change the car you already have really. It's pissing money away. I would seriously consider changing rather than doing all this if I were you. If you need as estate a nice second hand c63 may be up your street ?

Just my 2p worth.

:ha: It's maybe $6K for the haldex (which does make a significant difference to the driving behaviour) and brakes.

Not sure if I'd get much out of the DSG brain upgrade, as I drive it in manual all the time.

So nowhere even close to the cost of a new car here. (RS4 is about $174,000)

Nowhere close to even getting a good 2nd hand C63 estate or Black ($172,000 for #8 of 32 CLK Blacks on the market here atm)

Edited September 28, 2013 by Rachel

[Woppum]

I see. Limited supply. Does it have to be an estate, e92 m3 ?

[bison]

  On 9/28/2013 at 10:45 AM, Rachel said:

:ha: It's maybe $6K for the haldex (which does make a significant difference to the driving behaviour) and brakes.

Not sure if I'd get much out of the DSG brain upgrade, as I drive it in manual all the time.

So nowhere even close to the cost of a new car here. (RS4 is about $174,000)

Nowhere close to even getting a good 2nd hand C63 estate or Black ($172,000 for #8 of 32 CLK Blacks on the market here atm)

 

The joys of luxury car tax hey! Only bad thing** about living in Aus...

 

** Sharks, snakes and spiders should probably be on the list.

[Ian_C]

  On 9/28/2013 at 3:45 AM, Rachel said:

Lastly, a 'big brake' upgrade.  I know of a chap in Oz who has fitted Audi R8 stoppers to his R36, but I don't want to change the stock Omantys wheels if I don't have to...

 

The R8 shares its basic brake set up with the B7 RS4 and B8 RS5, 365mm x 34mm discs, although the R8 does use different non-floating discs.  They all use the same eight pot caliper that houses four pads.  The set up goes under 18s (the B7 RS4 came with 18s or 19s).  I think the Gallardo uses the same caliper too.  The C5 RS6 uses a very very similar set up too.  Parts are incredibly expensive though!

 

Another option are Q5 brakes.  The SQ5 uses a four pot caliper made by Brembo on 380 mm discs.  The Q5 3.0 TDi and 3.0 TFSI (ie non SQ5 model) run 345x30 mm discs - the same size as the B8 S4 - with I believe the same SQ5 caliper.  With the Q5, SQ5, B8 A4, B8 S4 (and probably others too) using the same caliper offset and brake cylinders, the calipers are 'bolt on', hence a great mod for B8 S4 owners for road use on stock 345 discs, or with upgraded 380 mm discs (VAG 18s would be borderline over these though)

 

However, the SQ5 is a very new model, I don't think Audi sell it in America, is it on sale in Aus Rachel?  Complete 380 mm kits coming up for sale are going to be rare and pricey, so you'd probably find the R8 RS4 RS5 set up was around the same price, plus no issues under 18s at 365 mm.  The discs and pads are frightfully expensive new from Audi though

 

Have to agree with above though, I would probably change the car rather than modify it, you cannot get around the weight and the laws of physics, on track both the 365 RS4 and 380 SQ5 set ups would fade

[Rachel]

  On 9/28/2013 at 11:24 AM, bison said:

The joys of luxury car tax hey! Only bad thing** about living in Aus...

** Sharks, snakes and spiders should probably be on the list.

Don't forget Stonefish, box jellys, sea snakes, scorpions, jumping jack ants (can kill), blue bottles, bull ants, wasps, hornets, swooping magpies, aggro currawongs, dingos, wild dogs, feral cats (supposedly including big cats - jaguars etc), Liberal prime ministers with a mandate and the good ol' tourist and native munching salties!!

Wopps, yes an estate, or something even gnarlier so the C63 becomes the daily driver ( say an AMG SLS Black or Porsche's new GT3), but I really need to win lotto for the latter to happen...

Ian, I don't track my cars. There are sound reasons to keep the R36 another few years, and the mods are chicken feed compared to what I have outlaid over the last 4 years on toys (almost $1M if bought at full r.r.p.) - they will also be reversible if need be. Yes we have all the new and hot Audis including the SQ5, and I can source things like VAG parts a lot cheaper than through the stealer network (my new rotors and pads for the C4S I had delivered and fitted for 40% of what just the parts would have cost through Porsche here).

Edited September 28, 2013 by Rachel

[Ian_C]

For road use, one of the Audi set ups would be a just right then. 

 

There is general debate that upgrading brake calipers but using stock discs isn't a worthwhile upgrade.  However I think they are - using B S4 as an example with stock 345mm discs, the SQ5 calipers are much lighter than S4 calipers, hence lower unsprung mass, stronger being monoblock, easier pad change, more even pad force distribution, hence more even pad wear, better feel through the brake pedal. More pad choices are becoming available too

 

However a 380 mm disc would no doubt give you more stopping power and probably better brake heat dissipation.

 

Depends whether your Passat runs 18s or 19s I guess - I doubt VAG 18s will clear 380 mm SQ5 brakes (in the UK the SQ5 is sold with 20s and optional 21s!)

 

As you say you can put the stock brakes back on when you sell the car and sell the upgrade brakes separately too

Edited September 28, 2013 by Ian_C

[Woppum]

Does the car need better brakes for the road? Or do you take it on track ?

Cheapest and most effective thing to do if you want better road performance is just swap the pad to pagid rs29 or the likes. They won't fade but if your fluid does braid the hoses and change to a better fluid.

Just trying to make cheaper solutions here, if you want them for aesthetics of course another matter.

You should give Eric banana a call and see what he thinks

Edited September 28, 2013 by Woppum

[Rachel]

There are some great drives around here that feature drops off escarpments that kill your average car's brakes, esp. in our hot summers, so having rotors that are drilled/slotted as well as vented helps significantly in these conditons (R36 uses Phaeton front rotors IIRC - which are vented only), as well as little things like braided hoses and heavier duty brake fluid.

There is also the joy to be had in the "double take" by other drivers parked next to you at lights, or pedestrians when they see a wheel with a massive disc rotor behind it - the C63 is a classic example for this.

The other aspect as alluded to by Ian is weight, reducing the unsprung mass by using higher end components - better ride, handling and even economy can be had.

It also just makes a sort of statement about the crazy blonde behind the wheel.

Any way it looks like the Haldex controller will be first - keep it in race mode (not buying the rotary or wifi remote switch for it) and make the car a bit livelier in its handling, and a bit safer esp. in foul weather. In the .:R32, when the roads were drowning or sleety or snowy/icy I'd turn ESP off to ensure the Haldex was engaged more of the time. VW had set the ESP up such that in many cases it intervened before the Haldex could engage and provide AWD traction - quite scary if not downright life threatening on 2 intersections near my place.

[Scotty]

That was a common problem I had I my TT. Try and boot it out at a junction and be left with nothing. If I had to make a rapid get away I'd always disable ESP. I think that was the main thing I noticed when switching to the S4 with Torsen.....oh and you don't get that pulsing of the power to the front and rear around long bends when on the limit.

Never tried a sport Haldex but would like to.

[Rachel]

Ok, spoke to the guys at Harding Performance (I know the owner) and it seem the best options up front for my baby are the Gen4 Haldex controller, then fit these with a 7mm spacer: http://goapr.com.au/products/brakes_vwr_vag_a5_au.html

It turns out the R cars only take about 5% of their braking from the rears, hence the VW Racing kits are for the front wheels only.

As for ECU tweaks, the Ozzie cars are as hot as you can make them, no aftertmarket code gives any improvement, though the APR guys once they get my ECU code # can look at doing the left foot braking enablement for me.

As for the DSG, as I've only ever driven mine in manual mode, this wouldn't give me much advantage (but does for those who like to let their cars shift for them).

Edited September 30, 2013 by Rachel

[Rachel]

from: http://www.vwgolf.net.au/archive/index.php/t-2089.html

Edited September 30, 2013 by Rachel

[Ian_C]

  On 9/29/2013 at 5:47 AM, Rachel said:

There are some great drives around here that feature drops off escarpments that kill your average car's brakes, esp. in our hot summers, so having rotors that are drilled/slotted as well as vented helps significantly in these conditons (R36 uses Phaeton front rotors IIRC - which are vented only), as well as little things like braided hoses and heavier duty brake fluid.

 

 

What size are they?  Are they one piece of two piece with separate bells and discs?

 

I'm sure the Phaeton discs are the same as the B7 RS4 at 365mm.  The discs and centres are separate using floating pins, the only difference being the Phaeton runs steel centres and the RS4 alu (hence RS4 owners buy the Phaeton discs and swap the new discs onto their existing centres)

 

So if you already have 365 mm discs on your Passat, the RS4 eight pot calipers are likely to fit straight on.  Job done!

 

However I'd be surprised if the R36 runs 365mm factory brakes?

[Rachel]

I think they are 345mm "out of the box", with the VWR rotors being 355mm. IIRC. Am I thinking of something weirder then - like a W8 Passat?

The advantage of the VWR package is that it bolts right in on the standard 18" rim, doesn't need different brake hoses and doesn't require an engineering approval, or upset the insurers.

I am still researching, though hoisted the car this afternoon to get the Haldex model # - and have ordered the new aggressive Gen4 controller. Might take a week or two to get as apparently Haldex are closed for some holiday today (this week?). If timing is right it will be installed in 4 weeks time when my baby is booked in for it's annual minor service.*

* major service last year also did a flush of the DSG "oil", and she gets an oil/filter change @ 6 months - midway between the book services.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Rachel

[Ian_C]

Probably a similar set up to the B6 B7 S4 - 345 single piece 345mm discs - and again yes it wouldn't surprise me if these brakes were also fitted to the W8

[Rachel]

Well, 5:30pm this evening we fitted the HPP (painted blue!) to the R36. No wired or wireless controller, so the unit is locked in "race" mode.

6pm, after yakking and paying, a massive stormy squall hit just as I was leaving, so the most perfect of crappy weather conditions to sample it in. I left ESP/TSC engaged (peak minute traffic) and pulled out of the workshop in manual mode.

Well, instantly the acceleration is a straight line felt different, and turning from a standing start, the vague, very slight understeer feel was gone, as was the sensation of being pulled around (with rear assistance). The car is very neutral and someone trying it from a FWD Passat would think it was now a RWD car!

So neutral poise and a more rear-biased feel in acceleration and cornering has transformed the car, with what was essentially a plug and play swap that took 10 minutes.

Probably the best mod you can make to a VAG (Haldex by BorgWarner) AWD car. Highly recommended (so far)!

Edited December 5, 2013 by Rachel