TP27 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) This is a very interesting TSN debate, one which I hope other regular Posters get involved in - I'm wondering too whether this situation (involving Ched Evans) is really only newsworthy because he's a footballer....... I suppose that if he was a start of Xfactor, The Voice etc. it might be similar.............. Edited January 8, 2015 by TP27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 It's all off now - he ain't getting signed by Oldham http://www.itv.com/news/granada/story/2015-01-08/ched-evans-deal-off-after-row-engulfs-oldham-athletic/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy2shots Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Patently we are not talking 30, 50 or 50 year olds role models as I would hope our character is formed by that age. We are talking school kids and regardless if you or I agree they should be role models, they are. Ask 100 boys who their role model is and I brt nearly all of them would say a footballer or pop star. None I would wager would say that youg guy who raised shed loads for charity whilst dieing. It's bad but it's the state of the world today. Tipex we are talking about a footballer convicted of rape so when comparing him to other professions it's only fair to compare apples with apples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylander Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Interesting debate. It seems the biggest no-no is somewhat sitting on the fence on this one. He is convicted of a heinous crime and deserves the appropriate dues. He is now released. Other footballers have commited heinous crimes - how many of them would get this airtime or have this degree of fuss? (I am asking a question not trying to make a point here!) Why should him being a footballer bar him pursuing his career once either cleared OR once serving his time? Other than the ones the law dictates one cannot pursue what dictates which professions are "okay" for convicted felons to return to (okay let's be specific and say rapists; but what about the drunk driver who crahsed and killed someone?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylander Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Tipex we are talking about a footballer convicted of rape so when comparing him to other professions it's only fair to compare apples with apples. Okay so what if he served time for manslaughter or was jailed for drink driving (with or without a fatal crash)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calm Chris Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Wasn't there a lad (a goal keeper) who killed someone drinking driving, did time and is back in a league. Chads crime was sexual, sex crime always carries a stigma of disgust and that stigma should be seen as part of the sentencing package. He really does need to give up on a playing career or move to somewhere so low brow (3rd tier Chilean league) his past won't go with him. He has the choice to live with his actions or attempt to show remorse and see if that tempers the public unrest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP27 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Am I right is saying that he's effectively living under Licence so the Authorities hold his Passport and therefore, he's got to be on "good behaviour" and he cannot leave these shores. On that basis, he's nowhere else to go but try and find a new Club to play football for and given (that I'm now advised the PFA are helping him), what can he do................? The general suggestion is that he has to come out and 'make good' for his wrongdoing but his Legal advisers, given that he's Appealing his original Conviction (correct ?), will categorically advise that doing so will prejudice his Appeal. Round and round in circles whilst he gets hung out to dry through Social Media by the invisible masses with and axe to grind. Fascinating in the extreme.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Convicted footballers continue in football as well. Just not convicted rapists. Who are the convicted rapist MPs? His conviction, or rather what it is for, is not the point where I'm concerned. It is his contemptible behaviour since he served the sentence that I have major problems with. Edited January 8, 2015 by NewNiceMrMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP27 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 His conviction, or rather what it is for, is not the point where I'm concerned. It is his contemptible behaviour since he served the sentence that I have major problems with. in all fairness, MrMe, you've been categorically clear on this all along - that helps this TSN debate. Where I come unstuck, and forgive me for repeating myself, is that his actions/behaviour in this respect must be coming from guidance and advice from his PFA/Legal advisers. To my mind (I may be wrong, so cut me some slack) is where the entire debacle falls apart...................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipex Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) If he'd committed a crime where the punishment forbids him from pursuing certain careers even after serving a prison term, then fair enough, but his punishment does not carry such conditions, whether you agree with that or not is irrelevant, as it's not his fault those conditions haven't been applied to him. No ones suggesting they allow people convicted of sex crimes against children to get a job in a school, that's why they make such people sign the sex offenders register, and abide by it's rules, for either a set period of time, or usually life in the case of offences against children. That is part of the punishment, restrictions on your freedom even after serving a prison term, if you are not subject to those extended punishment terms, then no one has the right to tell you what you can, or cannot do to earn a living, provided of course that someone is prepared to actually employ you in the full knowledge of your past. With regards to his lack of remorse, I'd expect nothing less from someone claiming innocence, to offer apologies would just be stupid, he could have been released earlier if he'd shown remorse, choosing to stay inside longer and not apologise for something he claims not to have done would normally suggest he really believes he isn't guilty. Edited January 8, 2015 by Tipex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patently Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Basically, Tipex, what you're saying is that if we're not happy with convicted rapists being able to play football after their release, then we need to change the law so that restrictions like that become part of the original sentence. In that way, the restriction would be imposed on him via a proper and fair judicial process applying democratically-decided laws. What we shouldn't do is just let a mob form up and intimidate people into doing as they are told. I'd agree with you completely, in that case 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busby Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 If he'd committed a crime where the punishment forbids him from pursuing certain careers even after serving a prison term, then fair enough, but his punishment does not carry such conditions, whether you agree with that or not is irrelevant, as it's not his fault those conditions haven't been applied to him. No ones suggesting they allow people convicted of sex crimes against children to get a job in a school, that's why they make such people sign the sex offenders register, and abide by it's rules, for either a set period of time, or usually life in the case of offences against children. That is part of the punishment, restrictions on your freedom even after serving a prison term, if you are not subject to those extended punishment terms, then no one has the right to tell you what you can, or cannot do to earn a living, provided of course that someone is prepared to actually employ you in the full knowledge of your past. With regards to his lack of remorse, I'd expect nothing less from someone claiming innocence, to offer apologies would just be stupid, he could have been released earlier if he'd shown remorse, choosing to stay inside longer and not apologise for something he claims not to have done would normally suggest he really believes he isn't guilty. 100% agree with you Tipex. Where is the benefit to anybody of him not being allowed to get on with his life now his sentence has been served? I genuinely can't see any difference in him being a footballer, an architect, a bricklayer or having any other job that isn't legally closed to him by way of having a sexual offence conviction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) I'd feel the same about him if he was any of the professions or trades listed above. As I've said plenty of times now, read the evidence. It is a complicated case with a mass of contradictions on the side of the defence. Ultimately though, he was convicted and he refuses to acknowledge his crime or apologise for it. I wouldn't want him working on my house as a bricklayer and I wouldn't want him playing for a football club I supported. Other criminals that have rebuilt their careers in football have acknowledged their wrong doing. That is entirely different. You can look at the case a million times and based on the evidence of just the night porter you'll find 99% of the population would come to conclusion there is no way in this world the girl consented to sex. Unfortunately, people don't look at the case. They just look at the aftermath and think he has been harshly treated. Absolute bollocks. Edited January 8, 2015 by NewNiceMrMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torino101 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Personally, I don't think it's anyone's business what he does once the sentence is served. He's been punished, that's the end of it. Anyone complaining that he's not been punished hard enough should take it up (as Patently says above) with the authorities and campaign for the sentencing guidelines to be changed, not campaigning to stop him earning a living. God forbid I'm agreeing with Tipex, but this is my feelings entirely. There have been plenty of other footballers also sentenced for other equally bad crimes that have served their time and been reinstated without a word. The feminists have jumped on the bandwagon big time on this one. Would they be angry if he was coming back and joining an accountancy firm? Then why should they be angry at earning a living as a footballer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP27 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 I accept all that MrMe but someone is project managing 'the Ched Evans brand' on all this and rightly or wrongly, I get the sense that the reason he's not accepting his guilt and making the noises you and others demand (to let him move on) is through third party advice. As a result, I feel he's being manipulated........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) I accept all that MrMe but someone is project managing 'the Ched Evans brand' on all this and rightly or wrongly, I get the sense that the reason he's not accepting his guilt and making the noises you and others demand (to let him move on) is through third party advice. As a result, I feel he's being manipulated........ He was saying the same the week he was released. I don't think his own little world has been influenced by anyone. He's just an arrogant vile pig in complete denial. Edited January 8, 2015 by NewNiceMrMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP27 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Well, as you know more about all this than me, I'd better accept your conclusion. As he's a footballer, some douchebag Agent will be missing out on his Oldham sign on Fee. Every cloud has a silver lining...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patently Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 He was saying the same the week he was released. I don't think his own little world has been influenced by anyone. He's just an arrogant vile pig in complete denial. OK, I have no problem at all with you taking that view. I haven't read the evidence, but am quite prepared to believe that I might reach the same view if I do. Where I have a problem is with the mob rule that says Oldham can't sign him, as opposed to shouldn't sign him. He has served the sentence that was imposed on him; as it happens I do think that the sentences for this kind of crime are too lenient, but that is an argument I have with the State, not with Evans. Now that it is served, he is free to go and work within the terms of his licence. Of course, if I decided that he was an unpleasant character, then I would be wholly entitled to not support Oldham. But someone has tracked down the daughter of an Oldham director and threatened to rape her. That's along the very same wedge that starts with "you shouldn't say that, it offends me" and ends with "lets pop into that office and murder a dozen cartoonists". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torino101 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Exactly. We are letting mob justice rule here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP27 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Exactly. We are letting mob justice rule here. Mmmmm - just hope that Social Media trolls never get access to gun licence then..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 What's with all the anti-feminist shite being written in this thread too? Where the **** do some of you get that from? Yes there are a few of them joining in, but start looking at what the majority are saying and stop picking up on small elements. Some of the comments in here smack of not bothering yourselves to actually do much more than read a few snippets and think the 'mob' account for everyone. The "mob" are in the minority. Don't be fooled otherwise. The people that make clubs change minds are sponsors and supporters. Not the idiots who make death threats. Not the morons who spout nonsense on Twitter because it seems the cool thing to do. Clubs pay little or no attention to them. Their decisions are driven by the people that matter. if a sponsor or supporters say "no", you have to listen. The majority protesting against him playing football in this country, for their club, are good, honest, loyal football supporters who just don't want people like Evans representing them. Not because of his crime - but because of his attitude since. Most of them, as fans, know what he's been saying. They've not just seen a few headlines like a lot of people in this thread. To keep saying "Oh he's a rapist so they're treating him differently" isn't the case. As usual, the minority get the headlines and this thread seems to be terming them the 'mob'. People intimating this is the feminist lobby jumping on a bandwagon need a serious dose of reality. Instead of criticising people who are campaigning against rapists and standing up for female rights, why not look at what it is they're actually saying, and why, in the case of Evans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torino101 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 The "mob" are in the minority. Don't be fooled otherwise. The people that make clubs change minds are sponsors and supporters. Not the idiots who make death threats. Not the morons who spout nonsense on Twitter because it seems the cool thing to do. Clubs pay little or no attention to them. Their decisions are driven by the people that matter. if a sponsor or supporters say "no", you have to listen. This is utter bollocks. The sponsors have changed their minds BECAUSE of the volley of abuse from the 'mob'. Oldham were ready to sign him and the suddenly didn't, Why exactly would they do that if it wasn't for the vocal / aggressive / downright awful threats a group of people no matter how small, but kicking up enough a fuss. I DON'T condone him being a rapist, but where do you draw the line. Some crimes you can resume your normal day job, others you cant, this smacks of a small majority who have taken exception 'because he hasn't admitted guilt' from dictating his future, surely the justice system has already done that??? (Obviously there are some exceptions, pedophilia and daycare springs to mind.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) This is utter bollocks. The sponsors have changed their minds BECAUSE of the volley of abuse from the 'mob'. Oldham were ready to sign him and the suddenly didn't, Why exactly would they do that if it wasn't for the vocal / aggressive / downright awful threats a group of people no matter how small, but kicking up enough a fuss. I DON'T condone him being a rapist, but where do you draw the line. Some crimes you can resume your normal day job, others you cant, this smacks of a small majority who have taken exception 'because he hasn't admitted guilt' from dictating his future, surely the justice system has already done that??? (Obviously there are some exceptions, pedophilia and daycare springs to mind.) It isn't just that he hasn't admitted guilt, and the fact you say that shows you know very little about what he has been saying. The man is vile. I go back to what I said previously. Find out about the case. Watch his interview on breakfast television shortly after he was released. I wanted to punch his and his pathetic girlfriends lights out. They made out he was the victim, endlessly. Edited January 8, 2015 by NewNiceMrMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon magnifique Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 If rumours are to be believed, the club has come out of this worse than many fans could possibly have imagined. The rumours are that the Chairman and owner, Simon Corney, has today resigned from his position and cut all ties with the club. Now I know Simon and I know him to be a passionate guy who wears his heart on his sleeve and who will have been hit very hard by this whole debacle, particularly the vile threats issued against board members, staff and their families. It's quite possible that if there is any truth to this it was an emotionally charged decision made in the heat of the moment that he might well change having slept on it. If he does walk away, there could be dire consequences for the club's very existence. Over the past ten years Simon has played a vital part in attempting to assure the club's future, and has done so single-handedly for the past 5 years or so at huge personal expense. I didn't want the club to sign Evans, indeed I haven't heard from a single Oldham fan who did. I believe Evans should be allowed to resume his life and career but only once this chapter is closed. While he continues to protest his innocence and while proceedings concerning the trial and a possible appeal continue that cannot happen. I disagree with those who say he has served his time having left prison. He hasn't. He has served half his time in prison and continues to serve the other half under licence. Evans' future now returns to being an irrelevance to me, to be replaced by my fear for the future of the club if Corney leaves and one particular board member (and Trust Chairman) stays. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torino101 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 It isn't just that he hasn't admitted guilt, and the fact you say that shows you know very little about what he has been saying. The man is vile. I go back to what I said previously. Find out about the case. Watch his interview on breakfast television shortly after he was released. I wanted to punch his and his pathetic girlfriends lights out. They made out he was the victim, endlessly. Your / everyones feelings towards the man is frankly irrelevant. He's done the time according to the law, whether we agree with it or not and should be allowed to resume his career. I actually f"cking hate the guy, but I get angry when people think they have the right to sway the justice system through mob rule. (Otherwise everything is up for change, why have a law in the first place.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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