NW200

[Cuprabob]

Sadly another young rider has lost his life at the NW200 - RIP

North West 200: Rider dies in fatal crash - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-36292910

[Scotty]

Very sad 

 

Good to see Farquhar's now stable.

[Cuprabob]

Good to see Farquhar's now stable.

Yes, that's good news indeed:-)

[JonC]

20 years of age 

[Mort]

Just seen his Dad on the BBC talking about his son. I felt so sorry for him and his family. Just tragic.

[NewNiceMrMe]

I have a question - how much longer can this type of event continue for? 

 

There have got to be questions, serious questions, asked surely?

[Scotty]

Should we stop horse riding, rock climbing, parachuting, marathons, trackdays, Nurburgring, etc etc ?

 

When we're not free to choose our own way of life it'll me a very sad day.

 

I don't want inside a world where everything is H&S. What's life if you can never feel alive?

[NewNiceMrMe]

Should we stop horse riding, rock climbing, parachuting, marathons, trackdays, Nurburgring, etc etc ?

 

When we're not free to choose our own way of life it'll me a very sad day.

 

I don't want inside a world where everything is H&S. What's life if you can never feel alive?

 

The number says it all. 

 

The ratio of deaths in this type of event is massively higher than in all the others you mention.  What you've cited as comparable examples simply aren't and I can't believe you seriously want to suggest they are.

 

This isn't about feeling alive or any of the other very easy to write lines that people roll out like clockwork.

 

This is about deaths per participant. 

 

Do the sums on it and you'll struggle to find any other form of organised sport that has such an appalling death count in recent years.

 

I've bitten a little because I think words such as "What's life if you can never feel alive?" miss the point entirely and are far too easily written.

Edited May 16, 2016 by NewNiceMrMe

[garcon magnifique]

It is always tragic when a family lose a loved one, but I truly don't want to see the end of road racing. The participants know the deal. I think the best we can do is look at every incident and do our best to learn what we can to improve safety both in terms of on 'circuit' protection and medical response.

[Scotty]

I've bitten a little because I think words such as "What's life if you can never feel alive?" miss the point entirely and are far too easily written.

 

Some people write them as throw away words. I assure you that it's a deeply considered opinion.

 

The over riding issue is freedom of choice.

[NewNiceMrMe]

I think you've over-reacted a little to what I actually said initially.

 

I asked how much longer they can continue for and that serious questions have to be asked.  Surely they do?

 

Free choice is a great thing, I agree

 

I choose not to opt for an event with a death per participant ratio of something like 1 in 300 in recent years (I know the numbers vary from year to year but I've based the 300 on what appears to be the highest number?).

 

My reply to you was simply that none of the sports/events you gave are even remotely comparison on that level.

 

As garcon says, the incidents need investigating and medical responses have to be looked at too.  Motorcycling events like this always surprise me in the lack of criticism they receive in contrast to, say, boxing.  It isn't long ago that boxing was once again being written about due to the Eubank fight (and bearing in mind there was no death there).  Yet the NW200 has had 3 fatalities in the last 4 years and 5 in the last 8.  I honestly can't think of anything else where that death to partipant ratio wouldn't result in it being the headline of every newspaper in the UK.

Edited May 16, 2016 by NewNiceMrMe

[garcon magnifique]

As with any motorsport, for me the serious questions amount to 'are we doing everything we should to improve safety?'. The questions shouldn't include 'is it time to ban road racing?'. Because that would be the beginning of a slippery slope into arguments to ban all dangerous pursuits. Banning things on safety grounds doesn't work. In fact it usually just makes whatever you're trying to ban less safe by forcing it underground. (Not literally... except for pot holing... )

[garcon magnifique]

The longer any form of motorsport stays off the front pages of the red tops the better. They'd only whip up a frenzy of ignorant hysteria.

[NewNiceMrMe]

Indeed.  Perhaps I should have said "This type of event in its current form", with that meaning improved safety and a reassessment of the dangers a road race presents.

[Scotty]

I think Garcon put it over bet than I did. 

 

I totally agree that each incident should be reviewed to see what can be improved and I know that happens. However when someone is pushing 200mph it is hard to ensure the safety of the riders ... and they choose to do it knowing that.

[patently]

Banning things on safety grounds doesn't work. In fact it usually just makes whatever you're trying to ban less safe by forcing it underground. (Not literally... except for pot holing... )

 

Spot on.  People like to compete, and you need to have an outlet for that else they will just do it impromptu and without safety being thought through properly. 

 

Equally, that doesn't mean that every individual event is safe from ever being closed.  Some have been discontinued on safety grounds - the Targa Florio is an example where developing views on safety meant that the event could not be made objectively safe in a manner that was feasible and affordable.

[NewNiceMrMe]

I completely understand the thrill of doing these things.

 

I wasn't always a boring, old, risk averse fart (honestly).

 

5 deaths in the last 8 runnings of the event tell me something is going to have to change though (be it the course, safety, medical resources, whatever).

[garcon magnifique]

If I recall rightly from something Guy Martin said shortly after he ploughed a field with his spine last year, the thing with the NW200 is that average speeds are even higher than the TT course. So well over 130mph. There's a limit to how safe you can make roadside hazards at that speed.

[Tipex]

They won't ban motorbike racing, they probably won't ban racing motorbikes on closed roads, quite rightly too, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they may ban certain classes of bike.

Remember group B rallying? That got banned, yet rallying still continued in a watered down, less interesting form.

Wonder how long it'll be before rallying gets watered down again, current WRC cars are much faster than the old Group B cars now?

[NewNiceMrMe]

Remember group B rallying? That got banned, yet rallying still continued in a watered down, less interesting form.

Wonder how long it'll be before rallying gets watered down again, current WRC cars are much faster than the old Group B cars now?

 

The demise of Group B is one of the few, probably the only, areas of motorsport I think I can speak with any real degree of knowledge on nowadays.

 

I posted a few weeks back as to the reason why - Henri Toivonen.  My motorsport hero in many respects and certainly in terms of rallying.

 

His death was the final toll for Group B.  Whether that was down to the car or not in his case is another matter altogether, but his death was the last call.

 

I think it would be folly for me to try arguing Group B should have remained because it shouldn't.  The cars were monsters.  They weren't the problem though.  The problem was that they were monsters competing on roads surrounded by spectators.  I wouldn't bring Group B back today even with the generally much better crowd control that we have though.  Those cars were the domain of the gods of rallying but very few could really handle them in a manner that would have them survive long.  Had it continued I have no doubt we'd have lost a lot more drivers.  Group B was power, power, power but no technology to control it.

 

However, the big problem was the spectators, the abject failure of WRC to ever properly address the gathering of people and the people themselves.

 

There's a very strange irony about the loss of Group B though.

 

The authorities and the cars weren't what killed it.

 

It was the fans themselves.

 

p.s. and the difference between Group B and Group A today (and why Group A continues) is that technology means we have the traction systems to make the power much more manageable and the crowds are a lot fewer in number and a lot better controlled (in most countries).

 

p.p.s. and it is generally thought nowadays that Toivonen's death had nothing to do with Group B.  I can't actually remember who it was but someone of note commented that he had begin suffering black outs from a head injury in the past.  The accident scene showed no signs of car failure (not that there was anything left of it), loss of traction, skidding, nothing.  It was as if he'd just driven off the edge.  That, according to most in the know, points to him having passed out at the wheel.  The crap video doesn't show a huge amount but there's certainly no evidence of it being the result of driver error or car problem.  Furthermore, there were no spectators close and, as a shocking inditement on WRC, no marshals or medics anywhere near the accident site. 

 

p.p.p.s.  I cheated and had to look it up.  The person of note I mentioned was Walter Rohrl, whom I believe is a motoring hero of Jim's (TSN Jim, that is).  I also need to correct myself in that it wasn't a previous head injury but a neck injury.  I think I was close enough though.  Sad times anyway, very sad times.  His kids still post on Facebook.  Grown adults now of course but this wasn't a case of a famous driver leaving a huge fortune from insurance for his wife and kids.  They lead very normal lives and have clearly been very affected by the loss of their father.

Edited May 16, 2016 by NewNiceMrMe

[Ian_C]

Should we stop horse riding, rock climbing, parachuting, marathons, trackdays, Nurburgring, etc etc ?

 

When we're not free to choose our own way of life it'll me a very sad day.

 

I don't want inside a world where everything is H&S. What's life if you can never feel alive?

 

Indeed.  Who was the Motorbike racer who died at home / holiday popping down his corner shop on his scooter for the morning paper and a pint of milk?  Oh the irony.  

[Cuprabob]

The programme on Group B Rallying is repeated on BBC4 @ 8pm tonight, coincidentally.

[Tipex]

While I wouldn't disagree with anything you said there (MrMe), I'm not entirely sure crowd control has got much better in the years since the demise of Group B.

 

I think there are simply less people watching for a couple of reasons, people lost interest after Group B as it wasn't as much of a spectacle and WRC disappeared off our screens for many years only to return on obscure channels late at night for the most part.

 

I can't comment on crowd control at motorbike road races as I've never been to one (driven the TT circuit but didn't stay to watch the racing), but I can't imagine it's very good, I'm sure marshals stop people congregating on the most dangerous bends etc, but the very nature of road circuits means you cannot cover it all, and people will get to where they aren't meant to be.

 

How long until a spectator gets taken out by a crashing bike? That will be the defining moment, killing yourself is one thing, but killing spectators is what gets things banned, fingers crossed it never happens, I'm not in to bikes at all, but I wouldn't wish to see these events banned.

[Cuprabob]

I'm pretty sure spectators have already been killed at the TT by a crashing bike in 2007

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-460841/Rider-spectators-killed-Isle-Man-TT-race.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Snaefell_Mountain_Course_fatalities

Edited May 16, 2016 by Cuprabob

[patently]

I get the MSA newsletter, and it has articles for all those involved in motorsports.  One of the recurring themes for the marshals is the difficulty of long road circuits; specifically that it is in their nature that you can't have frequent marshals' posts, and that spectators are generally stupid.