Belchy Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 I have a question about BHP claims after remaps etc ... After reading lots of posts and tuners websites, its not too clear whether the 1.8T 180 BHP engine still gets the 40bhp (ish) increase claimed. For example, on the AMD website, it claims for the 1.8T a 40 bhp increase ... does this mean that the car I have (180 bhp version) will go up to 220 bhp or are they referring to the 150 bhp model .. which will go up to 190 bhp? I called AMD to ask this question and chap I spoke to (sounded Australian) advised that I would get 220 bhp! He sounded a bit vague though and I'm just surprised that I can get 220 after just a remap. All the tuners websites (apr, amd, oettinger etc) state claims for the 150 bhp car and I'm just a bit worried that I'll fork out for a remap only to gain 10 or so BHP. Can anyone advise me on this? BTW .. my car is a 2003 A3 1.8TQ cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R32North Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 T cars can get big gains from simply remapping the ECU. N/A cars don't gain anything near as much as T cars. The 10% you refer to would be what I'd expect to get on my car! I can't comment on the claims made by AMD / APR / Revo / etc but I'd be surprised if you don't get at least another 30bhp from a remap. The 180bhp cars have different compenents than the 150bhp, bigger / different Turbos I believe, and a different map to start with. Its the same for the 150hp models which have different components within the same car range, and henec 2 150hp cars can be remapped to different levels of hp. But remember, the output you get on the day is based on all the factors of that day (temp, humidity, air, etc), the Dyno, the technician, etc. I wouldn't be so concered with getting exactly 220bhp but with getting about a 20% increase in power and torque, combine with a new, smoother power / torque curves. Having the max power ('cuse the use of those two words in the same sentence) isn't always the best, its preferable in many cases to have the more divebale car with the smoother power delivery and one which holds onto torque for longer!! I've known a couple of guys with 180bhp A3s and TTs who have the remap and the difference is tremendous, you won't be dissappointed!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shao_khan Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 The 180 and 150 are fairly similar engines, and you could expect to see similar results for both, so something around the 210bhp mark with remap and exhaust. If you check out Oettinger, MTM and ABT - they all have remaps that are TUV approved for say 50k Km, so there estimates are proven and conservative. Other tuners like AMD, APR, Jabba all do different things and may get different things and get different results. I think to go beyond 210bhp you really need an engine with Ko3s turbo fitted, I have seen some guys with claiming 230 from dyno runs. Either way I doubt you would be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisg Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 The B5 series 180s had a better head than the 150 but i've seen only 210 out of an AMD chipped one , i.e. only 30bhp more. Oettinger's 230 will have no lame horses at all,TUV regs see to that , but it includes a new inlet pipe and upgraded injectors ! I'm sceptical about 250 bhp..... you only get that on chipped S3s with a KO4 turbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frodo Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 So what is different with the 1.8T in the S-Line giving 190BHP I thought this had a KO3 blower? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quattroboy Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 I've had the Revo re-map with the 4bar FPR conversion which, according to Revo's website gives about 218bhp. Go for the free 5hour trial and you'll see that you definately get more than 10bhp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shao_khan Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 [ QUOTE ] So what is different with the 1.8T in the S-Line giving 190BHP I thought this had a KO3 blower? [/ QUOTE ] There is also a K03s which I believe is like a K03 with similar internals to the K04 so can withstand a higher boost,etc. (I think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frodo Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 So what is a 190bhp 1.8T good for on a remap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shao_khan Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Probably about the same 210 - 230 kind of range, although I know Jabbasport are tuning NB1.8Ts to 230 - 240 kind of figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BURTON Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 You can get 320 from just a map and turbo! and this is proven! All depends on what you want! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shao_khan Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Maybe from the 225 powerplant, but I cant imagien you would from the normal varients of the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BURTON Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Yup from a normal one.. The 225 are weeker than the 150/180 1.8T's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shao_khan Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 YOu are pulling my chain surely - I mean the 225 powerplant has forged internals, lowered compression, uprated crank and all that stuff ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BURTON Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 This is what has been discussed! I could be wrong on this as it was what i heard.. think it was in the Golf mag about 1.8T's! But what i do know is that you can get 320Bhp with no internal mods, bigger turbo and a Custom Loom map jobby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R32North Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Agree with Burton. I've heard that the 1.8Ts are good for 300 bhp without internal mods.... will need turbo upgrade, intake pipe, intercooler, remap, exhaust, down pipe, etc etc But 300 bhp is realistic from these engines... from what I've heard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazza_g Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 I wonder what MTM had to do to get 400bhp out of a 1.8t before they decided to drop one in each end of that 800bhp TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisg Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 The Formula Palmer Audi engines produce about 300 bhp, only two reported failures, ever. A missed gearchange and a selected 1st instead of 3rd These are race engines. Sorry I do not believe that you can get 300+bhp for road use with a chip and turbo, otherwise everybody would have been doing it years ago. Show me basically similar figures from several rolling roads or engine dynos and ....... I may be prepared to believe but at the present, as far as I'm concerned, they are bar figures. Frodo the 190 engines have a KO3s turbo [KO3 turbine with KO4 impeller] ( think that's the right way round) and twin intercoolers. I think this is what gives it the extra 10bhp over the 180 engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frodo Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Okay thanks for the info, so the basic problem with this is the KO3 is quite a small turbo and can only hold 1 bar. So the output is limited by this factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BURTON Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 So when you change the Turbo your doing well.. I chap called Ben Leach does it! He has his own mapp. Was featured in PVW about it.. He now works for VW in Wolfsburg! Its due to the fact he uses the original loom unlike others who use bits of this and that with say emerald. He uses his own loom in conjunction with the VAG loom.. He got relieable 300bhp out of his Mk1 Syncro! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drillslinger Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 I think you'll find that most of the 180 versions will get the same chipped hp as the 150 versions (AFTER the facelift) the difference is in, not the turbos, so much as the wastegate actuators (As confirmed by Gambba in an e-mail from Borg-Warner) The "K03S" has, IIRC a 1mm larger intake side, but the wastegate actuator holds more boost. The 180 versions that came out between Sept. 2000 and around the 2003 mark had regular K03 turbo's, but different mapping (I think the head flowed better too) The K03S designation is a misnomer, it doesn't exist, however for simplicity's sake, we still use it to refer to the K0S's with the firmer wastegates. Also, Borg-Warner state that the safety limit for the K03 Turbo is around 210bhp. Attempting to get more than that out of chipping (i.e. increased boost) can result in overspooling the turbo, and it eating itself Using other mods like exhaust, etc don't overstress the turbo, so they can help get you over the 210 mark. K04's are, of course, different. So getting them over 250 is child's play ( 's) I'll try to find Gambba's info on the K03's tomorrow. For now, it's time to go learn () some Java Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisg Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 Very useful info , thanks Drill. Oettinger go to 215 or 230 both without an exhaust but i'm sure that they are not going to take too many chances .... are they? THe KO4 guys in the States don't all seem to be having loads of luck - extra performance -- can't understand why they're not all getting 270 ish bhp. Some of the $$$$$$ they spend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shao_khan Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 For the 230 Oettinger conversion I believe they make some changes, infact if you look here halfway down the page it gives a description of the Oettinger 150 - 230 conversion which includes new turbo..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drillslinger Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 Oettinger's basic remap is listed as a 195hp conversion. These figures are GUARANTEED and therefore conservative. I got a good 210 ps from their remap (and a pleasant 243 ft/lbs torque, up from 155 std ) The 230ps conversion includes an exhaust, modified intake track, modified fuel rail (not sure WHAT they do to it, maybe 4 bar FPR) and a new turbo Which is nice.... but a tad bit expensive, ESPECIALLY when all they do for those with the std remap is cut €100 off the price of the 230 setup (Trust me, I asked ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drillslinger Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 As sent to Gambba: [ QUOTE ] Dear Sir, thank you for your interest in our products. First of all, we don't produce any turbo that we call K03S. But I hope I can answer your questions with the following explanations. All the following turbos have the same installation dimensions and thermodynamical performance. The differences are only in the actuator that opens the turbine bypass valve: K03-011 (5303 988 0011) 150 hp, 65 N actuator K03-026 180 hp, 85 N actuator K03-035 180 hp, 85 N actuator K03-044 150 hp, 65 N actuator K03-045 156 hp (Ibiza Cupra), 85 N actuator with 2 ports K03-049 150 hp (Sharan/Alhambra), 65 N actuator The 180 hp versions have an actuator with a higher opening force due to the higher exhaust gas pressure (which is a consequence of the higher boost pressure). Otherwise the valve would be pushed open by the exhaust gas pressure. The following turbos are a further development (since 2000) and have an improved and slightly larger compressor while using the same turbine (still with the same installation dimensions): K03-052 180 hp, 85 N actuator K03-053 150 hp, 85 N actuator K03-058 150 hp/180 hp, 85 N actuator Consequentially, putting a 180 hp turbo on a 150 hp engine will not bring about any change in performance, but putting on a K03-052/053/058 instead of the older versions will bring a slight improvement in engine efficiency. Additionally, with re-mapping the ECU you can achieve about 215 hp without danger of overspeeding the turbo. With the older turbos, 195 hp is the limit. With the K04 that's also commonly used (5304 950 0001) the power output should not be more than 220 hp. That means, changing a K03-052/053/058 against a K04 does not make a lot of sense. I hope that these details answer your questions. If you need more info, one of our service distributors will be glad to help you. Their addresses are on our website www.turbodriven.com. Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Best regards, BorgWarner Turbo Systems GmbH Sales IDS - Technical Support Christian Seibert [/ QUOTE ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drillslinger Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 I stand corrected in Ref. to the above, as seen in Gambba's letter the safety limit on the K03 is 220 where I had thought 210 That said, the Oettinger 230ps conversion consists of: [ QUOTE ] Konstruktive Änderungen OETTINGER-Abgasturbolader = Oettinger Turbo-Charger Motormanagement mit geänderter Abstimmung = Optimized Motor Management Ansaugluftführung modifiziert = Modified Intake track OETTINGER-Sportauspuffanlage (Vorrohr, Haupt- und Endschalldämpfer, Doppelendrohr 2 x 76 mm) = Oettinger Sports Exhaust ( Downpipe??, main and final muffler, twin pipes 2 x 76mm) [/ QUOTE ] I would imagine the main and final muffler to mean they include a resonator, but not sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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