Mk5 GTI bhp at the wheels?

[smeaton]

Hello,

Can anyone tell me what bhp the new mk5 is putting out at the wheels?

Thanks.

[zoomx3]

Auto motor und sport got 206 hp on a dyno

[simkna]

Not at the wheels they didn't. Wouldn't expect more than 160-170 or so.

Si.

[Mook]

Simkna is probably about right - the R32 loses about 87 bhp through the drivetrain, a big chunk of this due to the 4WD. You should reckon on the Mk5 GTI losing 50 or more BHP.

Give AmD a call www.amdtechnik.com and ask them! Don't forget to post up when you get the answer

[SMB]

if the r32 loses 87bhp, i know i'd rather have the gti. 250-87 bhp = 163bhp to shift 1.5 tonnes (approx) = 108.6bhp/tonne for the r32, for the gti, 200-50 = 150/1.33 tonnes = 112 bhp/tonne.

[Mook]

Different car though - Mk4 Golf v Mk5 Golf. Also it's not all about bhp/tonne - torque comes into it as well, as does handling.

Even with 247 bhp as standard in the Mk5 R32, this is still not enough - the car should push 300 as standard i.m.o., but that's another topic

Not knocking the Mk5 GTI, though, as it's a great car

[SMB]

those are figures for mk5 versions, Mk4 was 237bhp. torque on the gti is enough for 99% of people, and the heavy front end of the V6 also affects handling. I actually expect the Mk5 r32 to be over 1.5 tonnes, so BHP/tonne worse still.

[njbennett122]

What turbo does the MK5 GTi use? New revision of the K03?

[R32North]

Best not forget that while the R32 might lose 87hp (ish) by the time it gets to the wheels, you need to know what the MKV GTi is loosing to make a usefull comparsion.

The two engines in question are totally different, 4 pot T v's V6. Its down to internal and peripheral components sapping power, ie pulleys, flywheel, clutch, gears, etc etc etc.

Not saying that the MKV will be better or worse then the R32 for power loss, but they could be different enough to make a simple comparison inaccurate.

[DanAdams]

[ QUOTE ]

Not saying that the MKV will be better or worse then the R32 for power loss,

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no way that the mkV will lose a grater percentage of power than the R32, new or old - its a fact that 4wd and awd systems lose more power through drivetrain losses, its unavoidable.

Has nothing to do with which car ultimately puts down a higher poewr figure to the wheels, but the r32 will lose a higher percentage of its power in the drivetrain

[R32North]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Not saying that the MKV will be better or worse then the R32 for power loss,

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no way that the mkV will lose a grater percentage of power than the R32, new or old - its a fact that 4wd and awd systems lose more power through drivetrain losses, its unavoidable.

Has nothing to do with which car ultimately puts down a higher poewr figure to the wheels, but the r32 will lose a higher percentage of its power in the drivetrain

[/ QUOTE ]

The R32 is FWD until it needs to be 4WD..... which makes it much better at retaining power and putting it down than 'real' 4WD drive cars.

Which is why you disconnect the Haldex in order to get 'proper' power figures from an R32 when RR'd.

Granted this will never be the case when driving on the road, but then the R32 will be in-and-out of 4WD all the time while the GTi will be in FWD all the time.

Swings and roundabouts!!

[evosapper]

But surely the R32 will have FWD the majority of the time and then the Haldex clutch will only offer power to the rear wheels when slip is detected at the front.

This is unfortunatly lets down all of VAG's smaller products, my old S3 was only ever AWD in the snow!! However the B6 S4 and integrale were genuine AWD beasts with the obligatory rear bias...........

So the power loss will probably be very similar to the GTI and only greater once slip is detected.

[Mook]

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...which makes it much better at retaining power and putting it down than 'real' 4WD drive cars.

Which is why you disconnect the Haldex in order to get 'proper' power figures from an R32 when RR'd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolute bollox Brett

If any Haldex based 4WD car is run on the dyno, it should be run on a 4 wheel rolling road.

Using the Haldex system doesn't make it more efficient at putting the power down - the Haldex system is used to improve economy - i.e. less power to the rear wheels for most of the time you are going in a straight line - i.e. on the motorway or A roads.

Evo - if you want to turn the R32 (or S3, TT etc.) into a "proper" 4WD, then you can upgrade the Haldex controller to the performance version, which chucks more power to the rear more quickly, so it behaves more like a Scooby or Quattro. Not exactly like a Scooby or Quattro, but more characteristically like one.

[evosapper]

It will be interesting to see if or when the RS3 is given the green light if it will run a Haldex or Ferguson spliter. I heard from a guy who should know that around 250bhp is the max for Haldex to maintain the same absolute reliability, hence the upper limit with the TT sport.

I main issue is that the S3/3.2Q and the new R32 will be set up for FWD as that is how it will be running 80-90% of the time, then when split is detected it provides either power or more power to the rear which leads to speed scrubbing understear as the nose gets a shove in a straight line from the rear.

[Mook]

That's why you would fit the Haldex PPP upgrade as it's known. I run one on my R32 and got it (along with strut braces and uprated anti-roll bars) because I couldn't live with the understeer that the standard car is purposely set up with.

The 250 bhp limit on the Haldex 4WD system is simply not correct. There are tuning companies in the US and Germany running 400+ bhp through the standard R32 drivetrain without any problems. It's just when you get to 600+ bhp like www.hpamotorsports.com that you need to start spending serious money on the drivetrain, but you can retain the standard Haldex 4WD system, you just need to uprate the controller.

RS3 (if we ever see it in the flesh) runs the Haldex system on the prototype with the 350 bhp V6 turbo monster engine.

[evosapper]

Mauve,

It just seems a little bit odd that in the final year of the TT they only gave it a power hike to 250bhp, and the guy I mentioned earlier was a Audi development driver I met at Brands during a closed session I was lucky enough to be invited to. The tuning companies that you mention probably won't offer a cast iron waranty. I havn't experienced the Haldex PPP which is a shame as my S3 went due to going around roundabouts with 3/4 lock and going straight on!

[Mook]

The 250bhp was due more to Audi seeing this as the max they would hike the car up to for "reliable performance from the 1.8T" in Audi-speak, and don't forget that the 3.2 V6 was 250 bhp as well, so the marketing guys wouldn't have wanted to get too upset...

As soon as you start cranking the 1.8T up to 270 bhp and beyond you need to seriously consider beefing up the bottom end of the engine with fully balance couterweighted crankshaft and tougher pistons etc., for reliability - i.e. you want the car to do 100k + miles without any problems.

300+ bhp is easily achievable with a remap, uprated Schrick cams and a free flowing exhaust like the Milltek.

Ed at AmD in Bicester runs his 1.8T Golf GTI at over 450 bhp, but he's spent an absolute fortune on it. Too much to even think about.

The whole issue of understeer is a pain in the backside, but a lot easier to control as a manufaturer, as most people (!) tend to lift off when a car understeers. Oversteering cars would lead to lots of law suits as the back of the car swaps ends with the front when Mrs Miggins lifted off as the tail end came out...

Which is why it's great to have aftermarket tuning companies and suppliers who let you get your car to behave how you want it to by spending a relatively small amount of money.

[evosapper]

Mauve,

I agree entirely with the understeer, the big bosses can't have cars going backwards into every available hedge can they?

My 1st S3 was one of the first to be fitted with ESP post TT's being flung off at high speed in Germany. At the time the British press were saying it was all down to the aerodynamics, but why did Audi then rush the ESP onto all sporty A3/S3's?

Even BMW's latest and finest all are designed to give you warning understeer before you persist in trying to lift the tails traction. I'm very lucky to have a nice big old USAF WWII base on my back lawn, which is great to play with a cars dynamics, it's just a shame the surface is so abrasive it shreds tyres!

[Mook]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm very lucky to have a nice big old USAF WWII base on my back lawn, which is great to play with a cars dynamics, it's just a shame the surface is so abrasive it shreds tyres!

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't publish the address or we'll all be round to try it out - shredded tyres or not

ESP is a fantastic thing, even if it does get a Golf or A3/S3 to induce understeer. It's very, very difficult to lose an R32 with ESP on. But more fun with it switched off...