Ian_C Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 Factory German plates are nowhere near as reflective as our plastic UK ones, but you reckon I could put that S4 plate straight onto an Audi in the UK - assuming the same sequence of characters was actually available in the UK. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elucidate Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 www.germanplates.com and www.dubmeister.co.uk both make reflective plates as German standard plates are not reflective. You could have HZ 7353 for just over £1000, but you can not have the plakettes, as that is contravening clearly set out directives regarding extra information on the plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilp Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 So you are going to put a yellow one on the rear then?? or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_C Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 [ QUOTE ] You cannot have the plakettes, as that is contravening clearly set out directives regarding extra information on the plate. [/ QUOTE ] Bugger. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R32North Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Hang on a second here, the police don't 'MAKE' the law, they simply enforce the law. The police themselves do not make any one of the laws in this land, not one. This is a big mistake that British people think is true, the Americans have a far more educated viewpoint. The job of the police is to enforce the law, no more, and no less. The LAW of numberplates was brought in by a government agency called the DVLA, it was then decided in a court of law, that this was the way things were going to happen. BTW, Judges and or politicians passed this law, it was absolutely nothing to do with the police as far as making it actual law. The police act as advisors and issue 'guidance' on all aspects of law, but it is simply guidance. This is the reason why roughly 6000 people in the UK have legally owned semi automatic weapons, the police 'guidance' says that normal citizens can not have them, but demonstrate good reason and voila, you have yourself a semi auto. Also posted above was the actual DVLA guidelines pertaining to fonts, spacing, british standard etc and yet people decide to afterwards, still post absolute nonsense regarding the characters and spacing when it CLEARLY states that pre 2001 you do NOT need to adhere to BS spacing and fonts!!! IT couldn't be any clearer, unless of course you just skim read and don't actually understand words, in English. The police expert issue is a non starter, as the DVLA set out a clear policy, so if your plates fall within these, it does not matter. Police experts are brought in for offences where nothign can be proven to the absolute degree, such as "I believe your honour, in my expert opinion he was travelling above the speed limit" when they don't have any laser equipment to back this up. So to clarify, as clearly stated on the DVLA website, which is actual law, and cannot be changed, no matter what a policeman says, you may : any other relevant standard or specification recognised for use in an EEA State and which, when in use, offers a performance equivalent to that offered by a plate complying with the British Standard specification Oh, look, just above and in bold to make sure, the LAW states 'equivalent' and german plates are made in germany yes? Therefore they meet TUV standards, and germany is another EEA state. Case Closed as far as the incorrect information above is concerned. On the same issue, yes, dodging state sanctioned fines is indeed illegal, but my plates fit with part b of above, so blow me. [/ QUOTE ] As far as being wrong, incorrect information and case closed, don't for one minute to presume you know enough to make such a call...... I understand a bit more about this than you obviously give me credit for! As stated Law is written and is theoretical... in that you need a person to intepret it. Why do you think test cases exist, so that the Thoery of Law has a precedent! Home please don't being to lecture me on Law... Law is very rarely a state of absolutes and its very open to interpretaton, thats how us civilised, democratic countries operate, otherwise we'd be a dictatorship.... hence why one Police force can and will deal with things in a different way from another! As a Traffic Officer (not me) that person is allowed, within the confines of their undersatnding and training, to decide if something is within the parameters of the Law or not, otherwise why would we have the Police, we have Military Law and no flexibility! So, the Police do have the right to decide how to apply the Law relating to motor offences, as the Governemnts and Courts in this country have given them that right. Its within their jurisdiction to decide if the number plates meet the UK standard or not, and another police officer maybe think otherwise - its called having an opinion, whether its right or wrong is not for us to argue! I know exactly what the DVLA website states, but it is not the Law, it is simply a statement says that any plate is allowed which meets the appropriate Britsih (BSI) standard, and if you take the time to read and understand the standard, the German style plates can very easily be seen to not meet that standard. PS - I have do have copy of that Standard (SI 561 (2001) and I have read it, and its amendment in 2002. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjfr Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Its within their jurisdiction to decide if the number plates meet the UK standard or not [/ QUOTE ] And then it is within the court's right to uphold or reject that judgemnet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R32North Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Its within their jurisdiction to decide if the number plates meet the UK standard or not [/ QUOTE ] And then it is within the court's right to uphold or reject that judgemnet. [/ QUOTE ] Spot on that man.... thats how the system works in the UK!! If you disagree with what a Policeman has decided, ie you think they're interpretaion is incorrect, you have the right to have you say in court and then the 'Legal' side of things comes into play! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_C Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 Fair enough - a policeman is not expected to know british standard by heart. How on earth can a court convict you of using something that is british standard though? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R32North Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Fair enough - a policeman is not expected to know british standard by heart. How on earth can a court convict you of using something that is british standard though? Ian [/ QUOTE ] They can't, if what you have on display meets the standard, ie BS AU 145d. However, you should not confuse a British Standard (BSI) with the Law, ie Statutory Instrument 2001 No. 561: The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001 (amended 2002). The standard sets out how the plate should be constructed, look and perform in all aspects of size, lettering, spacing, borders, colours, etc. Statutory Instrument 2001 No. 561: The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001 is the Law or Policy on the whole matter. It is this which the Police will refer to. If you can make a German plate so that it meets all the conditions of BS AU 145d, and you comply with all the relevant parts of SI 2001 No. 561 then you are home free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_C Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 [ QUOTE ] If you can make a German plate so that it meets all the conditions of BS AU 145d, and you comply with all the relevant parts of SI 2001 No. 561 then you are home free. [/ QUOTE ] Come on - you tell me! Is it possible!? Do the UK plates have to use the set font, or are the slashed zeros allowed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R32North Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If you can make a German plate so that it meets all the conditions of BS AU 145d, and you comply with all the relevant parts of SI 2001 No. 561 then you are home free. [/ QUOTE ] Come on - you tell me! Is it possible!? Do the UK plates have to use the set font, or are the slashed zeros allowed? [/ QUOTE ] British Plates must comply with the standard otherwise they are braking the Law. So, each and every plate thats has been modded, uses different letters / fonts, adjust the spacing, etc etc etc so that it breachs any one of the parameters set out in the Standard / SI 561 is breaking the Law. I think tho, as mentioned, that many police forces do apply discretion to this and so long as the plate can be read by people and camers under certain conditions then they let it be. However, I think that by emulating the german plate style they see it as over-stepping the mark somewhat and so clamp down. So, in asnwer to your question I think you'd have to have to bump into a very strict, unforgiving polioceman who'd pull you up about it and you should get away with it OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elucidate Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 SixDegrees, the DVLA clearly state that any other EEA state approved plate may be used. If a traffic policeman decides he doesn't think it's right, that doesn't make it against the law. He can charge you, but the CPS will overturn it, and you will never have commited an offence. It actually says, in English (because I fear some people in this thread may be reading it in Swahili), that it does not have to be a BS plate or conform to BS regs. The german plates are approved in Germany, another member state, so it fulfills that requirement. The equivalent performance would be being as reflective (a seperate stipulation) and one would imagine, as legible. Well, with yellow rear plates and German font, I can't see how it would not be. So you DONT have to have your German plate made to British Standard, merely to German Standard. Its there in ENGLISH!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R32North Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 [ QUOTE ] SixDegrees, the DVLA clearly state that any other EEA state approved plate may be used - yes, but read on and you'll see there are conditions attached to that If a traffic policeman decides he doesn't think it's right, that doesn't make it against the law - Yes it does, until a court overturns his decision. He can charge you, but the CPS will overturn it, and you will never have commited an offence. It actually says, in English (because I fear some people in this thread may be reading it in Swahili), that it does not have to be a BS plate or conform to BS regs yes it does, 100% must conform to BS standards, read the rest of the sentence The german plates are approved in Germany, another member state, so it fulfills that requirement.- No it does not The equivalent performance would be being as reflective (a seperate stipulation) and one would imagine, as legible. Well, with yellow rear plates and German font, I can't see how it would not be. So you DONT have to have your German plate made to British Standard, merely to German Standard.not in the UK, you must meet Britosh Standarsds, otherwise that whole document is of no use Its there in ENGLISH!!!!!!! [/ QUOTE ] I think it is you who needs to return to the classroom to learn to read! A plate fixed to a UK registered vehicle must comply with the British Standard. That is in plain English, not from the DVLA or any other website you car to have visted, but as Law here in the UK. I know for a fact that German plates do meet the British standard and therefore are not legal in the UK. I fully understand that you can have any plate approved for EEA use, but there is a very strong, unquestionable, unchangeable cavet on that......... the plate must comply with the British Standard. There is no exception to that rule within the UK law, regardless of how you choose to read the wording on the DVLA site. So, I suggest to take a crash couse in how to read legal documentation, and where you focus on reading the whole sentence and not just the bit you are interested in.... you missed a vitally important patr of the that sentence!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elucidate Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 No I didn't "(b) any other relevant standard or specification recognised for use in an EEA State and which, when in use, offers a performance equivalent to that offered by a plate complying with the British Standard specification" PERFORMANCE EQUIVALENT ...TO BRITISH STANDARD SPECIFICATION I'm reading it fine. It does not need to meet british standard, it needs to have an equivalent performance. This is illustrated perfectly with German TUV and BS, if say you bought a set of lights you may have either fitted to your car, as they are a performance equivalent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elucidate Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 Oh, the part which does need to meet BS is: (a) the British Standard specification for retroreflecting number plates published on 15 January 1998 under number BS AU 145d[13], or And two manufacturers can provide German plates meeting that standard, as posted earlier by me. Oh and in case you missed it, one of those manfacturers actually had a response from the DVLA, I posted that too, but it was at the bottom so you may have missed it: "I can confirm that your assumption is mostly correct and European number plates may be used legally on vehicles manufactured between these dates (1973 and 2001). Schedule 2 Part 1 also extends the 'European' facility to number plates fitted on vehicles manufactured after September 2001. However, the equivalence test would be carried out against the latest issued British Standard" So, that states that yhou can use them, and seeing as #561 only requires retroreflectivity, I think we have already covered that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 This whole subject is getting somewhat anal imo. Unless you are a German national with a German registered car, why on earth would you want a German plate anyway? Whatever is written it's always open to interpretation and debate. Each court will decide whatever it wants....It's only a bunch of guys wearing dead sheep on their heads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_C Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 [ QUOTE ] However, I think that by emulating the german plate style they see it as over-stepping the mark somewhat and so clamp down. So, in asnwer to your question I think you'd have to have to bump into a very strict, unforgiving polioceman who'd pull you up about it and you should get away with it OK. [/ QUOTE ] Where is the rule written about UK cars having a yellow rear plate? If you drove a car with a normal white rear you'd be stopped for sure, so why not my above S4 example if they run the vrn and realise it IS a UK car? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R32North Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 [ QUOTE ] This whole subject is getting somewhat anal imo. Unless you are a German national with a German registered car, why on earth would you want a German plate anyway? Whatever is written it's always open to interpretation and debate. Each court will decide whatever it wants....It's only a bunch of guys wearing dead sheep on their heads! [/ QUOTE ] I agree, I got dragged into this by someone who is obviously far more knowledgeable than me and my local law enforcement department. I shall retire to my uneducated and unexciting world, while they carry on their crusade to to overturn the UK legal system! Please, consider youself victorious amd may you have many happy days (in court) with your german style plates! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHA Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 [ QUOTE ] This whole subject is getting somewhat anal imo. Unless you are a German national with a German registered car, why on earth would you want a German plate anyway? [/ QUOTE ] Because they are pressed metal and of a far higher quality than the crap plastic ones that you get in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R32North Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] However, I think that by emulating the german plate style they see it as over-stepping the mark somewhat and so clamp down. So, in asnwer to your question I think you'd have to have to bump into a very strict, unforgiving polioceman who'd pull you up about it and you should get away with it OK. [/ QUOTE ] Where is the rule written about UK cars having a yellow rear plate? If you drove a car with a normal white rear you'd be stopped for sure, so why not my above S4 example if they run the vrn and realise it IS a UK car? Ian [/ QUOTE ] Its in here: Statutory Instrument 2001 No. 561 - The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001 Schedule II / Part I / Para 3. I don't know why its like it is, I just know how it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elucidate Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 [ QUOTE ] I agree, I got dragged into this by someone who is obviously far more knowledgeable than me and my local law enforcement department. I shall retire to my uneducated and unexciting world, while they carry on their crusade to to overturn the UK legal system! Please, consider youself victorious amd may you have many happy days (in court) with your german style plates! [/ QUOTE ] No, what you mean is you actually read Part b in full, where it explicity states that the plates do not have to conform to british standard, merely that of another EEA member state. As you had been pressing the British Standard point all along. So don't try and have a sly dig, it's not polite. And yes, if I ever do get stopped, it will go to court, but then all I need do unless it has changed by then is refer them to part b and the DVLA's resulting letter to Dubmeister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossG Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 Oh my life - will someone bring me my Horlicks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elucidate Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 Yeah, ok, sorry, I am an cantankerous git today. Man from Scotchland inteprets it one way, I interpret another, and unless someone gets caught, and has to use that DVLA info as stated, we will never know the outcome. P.S. I think German plates look great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjfr Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 Two points: 1) If you go to court, what's your defence gonna be? Why did you want german plates? They're gonna see it as an attempt to avoid speed fines & ANRC tech. Judge rules against you, new precident set. It's called the common law. 2) Why German plates? Why not Latvian ones, or Italian or Spanish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazdot Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 R32 with German plates, driver fined £30.00 Tsn link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now