Quaife ATB

[wwd]

Having driven my MkV GTI for a couple of months and a couple of thousand miles I'm interested to know if there is a tidy way of improving the level of traction offered. As my screen name might betray, I've come from a rear wheel drive car and despite promising myself I'd buy another, limited choice and the attraction of the GTI's all round attributes has brought me here.

I am quite impressed with the ESP system in the Golf, being less intrusive than most and feathering, rather than cutting power when traction is breached but it's not as out right satisfying as having the traction in the first place. My current wonder is whether the Quaife ATB might be the answer. I'd be worried about fitting a true plate/clutch type LSD to a FWD road car as it might get to be too exciting on the limit but the Quaife's continually variable torque biasing might do the business. I seem to remember Clarkson blaming the Focus RS's manners on it's ATB but in general they seems to be well regarded. The Japanese spec. Civic Type-R has a similar device and it is generally coveted by UK drivers.

My question is, has anyone fitted or thought about fitting the Quaife ATB to a MkV GTI?

Have a look at ATB Differentials for more information.

[markstevenson]

i am allso intrested in this

evo mag fitted one to a 2.7 hyundi coupe on one of there fast fleet cars for £450 + £250 fitting they said it made a big improvement

[RedRobin]

As I understand it the Mk5 GTI already includes EDL within the ESP system and senses any loss of traction on an individual wheel basis. Personally I find that the easiest way to control traction is by only progressively feeding power - In other words a sensitive right foot. Modifying the suspension also helps but it's all very subtle. I have found myself suddenly in a few tricky situations and have been very impressed with how the ESP has come to the rescue. However, the key to better traction, in my humble opinion, is simply in the driving style. If the road is that slippery it's best to back off anyway. Otherwise consider getting a R32.

I don't see the Mk5 GTI listed by Quaife as an available option.

[wwd]

Thanks for the responses guys...

Mark:

I have that copy of Evo and hadn't seen the article but you're right, they do like it and of course the Hyundai Coupe is FWD too.

Red:

I do think that the ESP system is impressive, but as you state, it feels like it 'rescues' a situation rather than avoids it's occurence all together. Regarding driving style, it's true that smooth inputs are key but knowing that in extremis (t-junctions, slippy surfaces and the like) the FWD format is hindering progress is a dissapointment to an otherwise great package.

BTW - Quaife actually make an ATB specifically for the MkV GTI (02Q gearbox) and it's £525+VAT. Almost sounds reasonable ;-)

Oh, and the R32:

Too heavy (the scourge of all modern cars)

Too thirsty (one of the best features of the GTI)

Too costly (self explainatory)

[RedRobin]

Hi WWD - In extremis you are absolutely right and probably the most common and most inconvenient scenario is at T-junctions with the desire to move off quickly. Obviously it's a matter of accepting any limitations a car has and driving accordingly (had a Golf Mk4 TDI loaned the other day and I don't think I drove over 60! A gutless marsh-mallow with about 6" travel before any brakes!!).

I must have missed the GTI Quaife ATB on their web site - It does sound very interesting and I assume that it will work with DSG. Have looked again and I cannot find any info for the Mk5 GTI on their site. I'm very interested but, as usual, very cautious.

I agree with you about the R32 but I found it does have great grip as to be expected but you don't feel any fun until at licence losing speeds - Just my opinion based on only one solo half-day test drive.

[stevie_d]

WWD> Yeah, I know what you're saying. Traction control and *insert host of tla here* does seem to react rather than pre-act (???). Although I think it's Awesome GTI who have a 270bhp GTI and that's fine.

[Cleybrooke]

Had a limited slip on a Fiat Coupe a while ago and you could really feel the power going to the inside wheel with all the grip. You don't get that feeling with the Golf.

[wwd]

First of all, thanks to everyone for such prompt reponses. I'm amazed by the level of activity in this forum and I'm grateful for all of your input.

Red:

I don't know if the diff on a DSG equiped car is the same as the 02Q unit fitted to the manual car. The DSG has slightly different ratios, so it's possible there's a difference. Have you considered this option - I see from some of your other (numerous!) posts that you've fettled a few things on your GTI and if more power is on your mod shortlist then it may be a sensible precursor in getting the best from any extra power?

Stevie:

Sounds like you know the feeling I mean... I'd love to know what the Awesome GTI is like as I'm sure the ESP will do it's best to make it driveable but does the extra power improve the GTI experience if the 'computer says nooo....'? I guess that straight line speed would be improved, but a 'relatively' modest car like the GTI just isn't quick enough for straight line thrills - much more fun in the corners!!

James:

It's usually the inside wheel that loses traction (weight is transfered to the outside of the car during cornering, unloading the inside suspension) but it sounds like the Fiat diff. works in that application. Did you notice any unwelcome traits like violent torque steer / snatchiness and do you know what kind of LSD Fieat use in the Coupe?

[RedRobin]

WWD - I'd have to do a bit of research (which I'll enjoy doing!) on the GTI's EDL etc. My suspension mod really does make a difference - I've just returned now from an exhilerating twisties drive and I get no harsh snatchiness (perhaps I'm not trying hard enough!). I'm def not looking for a power increase at this time....I've driven several 270 bhp GTIs, one extensively modded for track, and I love the power but don't feel I need it at present. I would be more interested in improving traction but before such mods, I intend to do a Car Control course to give myself a tuning!

Do you work for Quaife?

[wwd]

Re: "Do you work for Quaife?"

Sorry Red, no. If I am beginning to sound like a salesman then please accept my most sincere apologies!!!! I just wondered if anyone has any practical experience of this unit. It really sounds like a perfect fix to the only serious deficiency of the GTI. I'm quite astonished that people are putting 250, 260 and even 270bhp through the front wheels without major drivetrain / suspension mods - I can definately induce torque steer in my standard GTI albeit only when 'wringing it's neck' and we've already dicussed the traction issues... I suspect your suspension mods have made an appreciable difference. Have you changed the geometry at all? Reducing the (probably positive from the factory) camber may improve initial bite at the cost of straight line stability (another track trick really). Like you, I have no interest in turning my car into a track day tool. As the old proverb goes, 'If I was going there, I wouldn't start from here'!!! I do however miss RWD levels of traction even though I'd originally convinced myself that I wouldn't for road use.

Thanks for looking into this Red. I'm a bit of a research monster myself but I'm struggling here... Opinions seem to be hugely biased one way or the other so we really need to find someone who has tried a Quaife equipped MkV.

P.s. I found a web link to the article in EVO that 'markgti' mentioned earlier here:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/fastfleet/62502/hyundai_coupe_v6.html

[RedRobin]

No prob....Everyone who's been on TSN a while will have wondered at some stage whether I work for Milltek! In fact Milltek's MD told me that some of his staff wondered why they hadn't met this invisible 'super salesman' called Robin! I just felt I had to check you out just in case you were only here touting for biz but please don't feel offended - I didn't expect the answer to be "Yes".

Ray West fitted my suspension and laser checked the alignments after I settled it. KoniFSD + Eibach Springs + Eibach ARBs, straight forward. He has Bilstein + Eibach suspension plus tweaked camber/geometry on his own 270 bhp Mk5 GTI and fitted Porsche brakes with his own milled components etc. I've driven her on the road and she's an extremely smooth car. She was featured in an issue of "Volkswagen Driver" - Front cover plus full write up.

I've forgotten if I've already posted a KoniFSD link in this thread! But, if not: web page ....They're perfect for road use.

I've got stuff (dinner) to do right now but I'll research later and get back to you here. The power of TSN!

[markstevenson]

i dont no if you have noticed but there was some talk about quaife diffs on the r32 forum. you will have to go back 2 or 3days if you click on the link to big boys toys.

a race team had one fitted to a mark 4 r32 but had to take it off because it was to quick. they allso say it,s good

[wwd]

Well spotted Mark. That certainly makes for interesting reading and and adds fuel the 'definate improvement' case but the only first hand comments again relate to track use where it would undoubtedly be superior. Shaun, Mook et al don't really comment on road use - bumps and all! I can;t decide whether VW chose to omit an LSD type differential on technical or cost grounds.

I've always tried to maintain the view point that manufacturer X has spent millions of pounds/dollars/euros developing, tuning and testing a complete product and my designs on improving it are misguided but I guess that the big boys are aiming at a very wide market and down to a very specific price point. I have to laugh at the 'Max Power' type mods but there seems to be guys (like Red) on here who've made sensible (and of course personal) improvements. That Koni FSD damping for instance sounds fantastic.

If any of the R32 guys are around, any ideas?

[Cleybrooke]

You are of course correct it is the inside wheel that loses grip. The Fiat Coupe had a viscous couple so it “felt” like it had got grip on the inside. What was happening of course was that none of the power was being lost from the outside giving a sling shot out the corner.

The Coupe has 220bhp going through the front wheels and a turbo that delivered all of it between 3500 and 4500 rev band (If I recall) but to be fair there was never that much torque steer (no worse than the Golf) and remember it did with out traction control.

It also had 5 cylinders and 220 lb of torque so it felt quicker than the Golf. On the whole the Golf handles better though.

In many ways I think I prefer the mechanical solution of the Fiat rather than the electronics of the Golf.

[RedRobin]

[ QUOTE ]

I've always tried to maintain the view point that manufacturer X has spent millions of pounds/dollars/euros developing, tuning and testing a complete product and my designs on improving it are misguided but I guess that the big boys are aiming at a very wide market and down to a very specific price point.

[/ QUOTE ]

....I have tended to have that view too but, coincidentally, today I spent the afternoon at AP Racing (also with SiBurt who introduced me) and we had some very interesting conversations - One of which was exactly this point: "Why don't car manufacturers supply the better suited brakes/suspension/etc for the car in the first place?" And the answer is that it's largely as you say - Down to the less sophisticated needs of the wider market and also total cost. Those of us who know the benefit of and consequently want higher spec mods are a tiny minority. It's all to do with production economics.

Re the KoniFSD, I learnt today that they are now standard on two models of supercar! They are a relatively new product and apparently are selling like hot cakes!