Monaco GP Thread

[Waylander]

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I don't know anymore than the experts. But when I saw it live, and then saw it again at normal speed (the slo-mo is very misleading IMO) I felt it was a mistake, followed by a genuine attempt to get round.

I don't doubt the stewards made a sincere, honest decision. I just think it was the wrong one, influenced by ridiculous levels of pressure from the other teams and the media.

Fortunately, after a simply stunning drive no doubt inspired by the feeling of injustice, Michael managed to pick up a few points to keep just about in touch with Alonso.

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Aye. Had too-far-reaching consequences [this season and Michael's retirements thoughts IMO]

[5to1]

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Entirely agree on that, and it could certainly be argued that incidents in the past (not just involving Michael) have gone unpunished.

What I can't understand here is how the stewards could possibly come to the conclusion Schumacher definitely did this intentionally.

As the rules have been applied thus far, I would have expected Michael to lose his fastest lap, effectively for blocking those behind him intentionally or not. Of course that is ignoring all the hype around the incident - something the stewards were evidently unable to do.

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Got to disagree with you there, the little black box on an F1 can measure just about every input from the driver into the car and how the car reacts.. we can't know what Micheal was thinking but for him to stamp on teh brakes as hard as he did for that cornere despite his entrance speed being no higher than any of this previous laps shows he was trying to provoke something..

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I'm sorry, but if this is the most incriminating evidence available, F1 has just set a dangerous precident for the future.

Clearly he had to have done something different from his previous laps, or he would not have ended up a few inches from the wall. Therefore the fact that he braked harder on this occasion is not sufficient proof on its own.

I walk down the stairs every morning at the same speed. If one day I accidentally trip and fall, does the fact that I've done the same action thousands of times before mean I fell on purpose?

Most people appear to be tacking on the argument that he is infallible, 7 times world champion, etc, and so he could not have made such an elementary mistake. But clearly we have seen him make silly mistakes before.

We've seen him leave the track for no apparent reason while holding a 30 second lead. We've seen him crash out and break his leg. Ironically Jackie Stewart, who has jumped on the bandwagon as usuall, not so long ago made a statement to the effect - I've never seen a World Champion who makes so many silly mistakes. I remember the ITV pundits agreeing at the time. Yet now that he's no longer World Champion he's infallible? Would have thought it would be the other way around myself.

So what happeneds now? Every time someone has an accident and affects anothers race, they will be penalised?

Because clearly, to have an accident, you have to have done something different then on a previous lap.

[NeilB]

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utter nonsense and typical sentiment against anyone at the top of the tree esepcially if he is German.

I don't recall any such calls against Montoya when he slammed on in the tunnel a few years back with Schumi behind him; that was potentially fatal and he got off scott-free with little of the drivel talked about here. Condemn Senna [even in retrospect] then let's talk...

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That incident was 50/50 Schumacher shouldn't of braked hard in the tunnel and Montoya should of been aware that Schumacher has a habit of standing in the anchors under a safety car. Montoya's antics last year on the run upto Casino Square was much more dangerous IMO.

Good race from Alonso, Webber, Raikkonen, Coulthard and Schumacher though.

[CarMad]

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Entirely agree on that, and it could certainly be argued that incidents in the past (not just involving Michael) have gone unpunished.

What I can't understand here is how the stewards could possibly come to the conclusion Schumacher definitely did this intentionally.

As the rules have been applied thus far, I would have expected Michael to lose his fastest lap, effectively for blocking those behind him intentionally or not. Of course that is ignoring all the hype around the incident - something the stewards were evidently unable to do.

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Got to disagree with you there, the little black box on an F1 can measure just about every input from the driver into the car and how the car reacts.. we can't know what Micheal was thinking but for him to stamp on teh brakes as hard as he did for that cornere despite his entrance speed being no higher than any of this previous laps shows he was trying to provoke something..

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I'm sorry, but if this is the most incriminating evidence available, F1 has just set a dangerous precident for the future.

Clearly he had to have done something different from his previous laps, or he would not have ended up a few inches from the wall. Therefore the fact that he braked harder on this occasion is not sufficient proof on its own.

I walk down the stairs every morning at the same speed. If one day I accidentally trip and fall, does the fact that I've done the same action thousands of times before mean I fell on purpose?

Most people appear to be tacking on the argument that he is infallible, 7 times world champion, etc, and so he could not have made such an elementary mistake. But clearly we have seen him make silly mistakes before.

We've seen him leave the track for no apparent reason while holding a 30 second lead. We've seen him crash out and break his leg. Ironically Jackie Stewart, who has jumped on the bandwagon as usuall, not so long ago made a statement to the effect - I've never seen a World Champion who makes so many silly mistakes. I remember the ITV pundits agreeing at the time. Yet now that he's no longer World Champion he's infallible? Would have thought it would be the other way around myself.

So what happeneds now? Every time someone has an accident and affects anothers race, they will be penalised?

Because clearly, to have an accident, you have to have done something different then on a previous lap.

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Not a bad precedent to set at all even Max Mosley that worships the ground that Schumacher walks on says that there was plenty of evidence that his actions were far from honorable. I have gone over the footage from yesterday serveral times and it just doesn't fit. He wasn't on a dirty part of the track, he didn't approach the corner faster than he did the previous fast lap and the way he handled the TINY skid just didn't look right at all. Why he broke so hard is very difficult to explain, he didn't have too much speed, there was nothing on the track to avoid, there hadn't been an incident, no yellow flags to avoid or anything.

Do you when approaching a roundabout at speed suddenly jam the brake pedal into the carpet for a laugh... no neither do I because it would a stupid thing to do. So why would he do it .. thats not a mistake its a calculated action and its for this reason that they gave him the punishment that he did. If he had applied a similar pressure to that that he had managed to do on every other lap he would have been fined but he didn't..... no mechanical issues with the car to explain it off either.

Sorry but this wasn't a mistake, fair play to him for trying it on .. but in todays technological times he was found out.

[Waylander]

Massa crashed out in the first round in a ver strange manner that none of the commentators could fathom our either. I think "it didn't seem right" is thus doghy ground to stand on for such a precedent.

[5to1]

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Entirely agree on that, and it could certainly be argued that incidents in the past (not just involving Michael) have gone unpunished.

What I can't understand here is how the stewards could possibly come to the conclusion Schumacher definitely did this intentionally.

As the rules have been applied thus far, I would have expected Michael to lose his fastest lap, effectively for blocking those behind him intentionally or not. Of course that is ignoring all the hype around the incident - something the stewards were evidently unable to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Got to disagree with you there, the little black box on an F1 can measure just about every input from the driver into the car and how the car reacts.. we can't know what Micheal was thinking but for him to stamp on teh brakes as hard as he did for that cornere despite his entrance speed being no higher than any of this previous laps shows he was trying to provoke something..

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but if this is the most incriminating evidence available, F1 has just set a dangerous precident for the future.

Clearly he had to have done something different from his previous laps, or he would not have ended up a few inches from the wall. Therefore the fact that he braked harder on this occasion is not sufficient proof on its own.

I walk down the stairs every morning at the same speed. If one day I accidentally trip and fall, does the fact that I've done the same action thousands of times before mean I fell on purpose?

Most people appear to be tacking on the argument that he is infallible, 7 times world champion, etc, and so he could not have made such an elementary mistake. But clearly we have seen him make silly mistakes before.

We've seen him leave the track for no apparent reason while holding a 30 second lead. We've seen him crash out and break his leg. Ironically Jackie Stewart, who has jumped on the bandwagon as usuall, not so long ago made a statement to the effect - I've never seen a World Champion who makes so many silly mistakes. I remember the ITV pundits agreeing at the time. Yet now that he's no longer World Champion he's infallible? Would have thought it would be the other way around myself.

So what happeneds now? Every time someone has an accident and affects anothers race, they will be penalised?

Because clearly, to have an accident, you have to have done something different then on a previous lap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a bad precedent to set at all even Max Mosley that worships the ground that Schumacher walks on says that there was plenty of evidence that his actions were far from honorable. I have gone over the footage from yesterday serveral times and it just doesn't fit. He wasn't on a dirty part of the track, he didn't approach the corner faster than he did the previous fast lap and the way he handled the TINY skid just didn't look right at all. Why he broke so hard is very difficult to explain, he didn't have too much speed, there was nothing on the track to avoid, there hadn't been an incident, no yellow flags to avoid or anything.

Do you when approaching a roundabout at speed suddenly jam the brake pedal into the carpet for a laugh... no neither do I because it would a stupid thing to do. So why would he do it .. thats not a mistake its a calculated action and its for this reason that they gave him the punishment that he did. If he had applied a similar pressure to that that he had managed to do on every other lap he would have been fined but he didn't..... no mechanical issues with the car to explain it off either.

Sorry but this wasn't a mistake, fair play to him for trying it on .. but in todays technological times he was found out.

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I'm sorry, but how can you determine anything from a replay?

Its difficult enough to determine the speed a car is travelling at, change in velocity, change in direction, etc in real life. Nobody can get any meaningfull answers to any of these questions from replays on a TV screen.

Secondly I don't see where they have given any details as to the change in brake intesity. Just that he braked much harder. How much harder? For how long?

Thirdly lets look at what he's being accused of. If he wanted to block the track, why do it in this way? Alonso came within a whisker of taking pole, so clearly schumi didn't do that good a job.

Since Schumi's 'such an awesome driver that can do anything with a car' he could have found a way to block the whole track. Infact that would have made more sense. A little too much power around that corner, send the back end out and there's no getting past him.

Instead he allegedly slams the brakes with a wall infront of him.

As I said there's hardly enough evidence there to warrant an enquiry let alone a penalty. You could probably get the same degree of evidence about any accident in F1. And thats why this is a bad precident to set.

Every team will now be throwing a wobbly, anytime anyone has an accident which hurts their race/qualifying.

[5to1]

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Do you when approaching a roundabout at speed suddenly jam the brake pedal into the carpet for a laugh... no neither do I because it would a stupid thing to do. So why would he do it

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Because he's not on a little trip to the shops.

He's trying to put in the fastest lap possible on a very tight circuit, and should he carry too much speed around a corner he could well total his car.

Having never driven an F1 car, let alone at Monaco, i'm not sure what I would do. However, if I was to hazzard a guess, if I was on pole and thought I was going into a corner too fast, i'd probably concentrate on avoiding the walls above all else.

Also wrt to what the black box tells you. Clearly the black box doesn't tell you a fraction of what a drivers senses do. If it did, good test drivers wouldn't be so saught after. Infact Schumi himself is considered one of the best in determining what a car is doing, and how to improve it.

[CarMad]

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Do you when approaching a roundabout at speed suddenly jam the brake pedal into the carpet for a laugh... no neither do I because it would a stupid thing to do. So why would he do it

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Because he's not on a little trip to the shops.

He's trying to put in the fastest lap possible on a very tight circuit, and should he carry too much speed around a corner he could well total his car.

Having never driven an F1 car, let alone at Monaco, i'm not sure what I would do. However, if I was to hazzard a guess, if I was on pole and thought I was going into a corner too fast, i'd probably concentrate on avoiding the walls above all else.

Also wrt to what the black box tells you. Clearly the black box doesn't tell you a fraction of what a drivers senses do. If it did, good test drivers wouldn't be so saught after. Infact Schumi himself is considered one of the best in determining what a car is doing, and how to improve it.

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All well and good but the facts remain that the stewards found more than enough evidence from everything from interviewing Schumacher, people in the team, looking at the footage and from the telemetry. I'm quite certain that they wouldn't have taken this decision lightly, infact the time that they took to check everything I'm sure they wanted to be sure beyond reasonable doubt, because of the seriousness of the situation that they had made the right decision.

We don't have all the facts but they did, F1 now has a head steward who's name escapes me that goes to every race to ensure that the way in which the rules are interpreted are the same at every race to remove a local factor, not even than can be blamed any more.

[garcon magnifique]

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All well and good but the facts remain that the stewards found more than enough evidence from everything from interviewing Schumacher, people in the team, looking at the footage and from the telemetry. I'm quite certain that they wouldn't have taken this decision lightly, infact the time that they took to check everything I'm sure they wanted to be sure beyond reasonable doubt, because of the seriousness of the situation that they had made the right decision.

We don't have all the facts but they did, F1 now has a head steward who's name escapes me that goes to every race to ensure that the way in which the rules are interpreted are the same at every race to remove a local factor, not even than can be blamed any more.

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That's all true. Which makes it even more astounding that they got it so horribly wrong!

[Scotty]

..oly in the minorities opinion.

[garcon magnifique]

True...

But then I drive a Subaru Legacy - I'm used to being in the minority...

[Waylander]

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..oly in the minorities opinion.

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aye but then the majority have always been extremely objective when it comes to Schumi.

For the example this would be the same Jackie Stewart who a few weeks back said that he had never seen a world champion make as many silly mistakes as Schumacher does....

[RedRobin]

.....Jackie Stewart is hardly an objective observer without his own (financial) interests.

[Waylander]

precisely!

[jimdiesel]

Michael did not disrupt the qualifying on purpose. Just analise the facts.

1) At worst he would have dropped to the second row of the grid. Only Kimi,Alonso and possibly Weber could have beaten his first run time, and Kimi has admitted that his lap had already been screwed by traffic. Not that Michael was aware of this as there had been no radio communication to him regarding what the others where doing.

2) He lost 1 and possibly 2 fuel credit laps, which could have had a big impact on his race. The credit is actually worth more than the fuel used doing a lap.

3) Michael is well aware of what might happen if a driver causes intentional disruption to any session.

4) If you were going to disrupt the session you would just pull over to the side of the track, somewhere relatively safe, and just claim a phantom technical problem. This would cause a yellow flag and would not have 8 hours of investigation by the stewards afterwards.

As Michael has said, he was prejudged.

[malagus]

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Malagus - does your driving experience extend to what to do when you're understeering towards a barrier?

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I'm sure michael schumachers certainly does, and IMO, he locked up, was understeering, but surely if you arn't going to make it round the corner you would put some effort in! He made very little attempt to make the turn.

[garcon magnifique]

Malagus, that demonstrates my point perfectly. Thanks.

[malagus]

I agree with the marshals on this one though. if they are going to penalise Jaques for slowing down fizi on a quali run, they have to do something when almost the entire paddock says 'he didn't try to take the corner' I just think that someone of MS's skill, who has salvaged so many runs despite making far worse mistakes than that could've at least got out of the way a bit better. This is a guy who coyuld probably flip a car and keep it in gear, yet he does something like that? just seems massively out of place to me.

[RedRobin]

I'll say again that, in my considered opinion, that there is much more to this decision than a driver's error on an extremely difficult circuit. In the ultra competitive environment which F1 is, there is just as much fighting and trying to take every advantage of competitors off track as there is on track. There are large sums of money and power involved. It's not unlike boxing in that there is the psychology of verbally fighting outside the ring and trying to influence your opponent's mind.

So, I really do believe that this Schumacher issue is fundamentally about the authorities taking advantage of the team squabbles to reinforce its own power. Also it's easier to be a sheep and go with the majority opinion.

[malagus]

i completely agree redrobin, but the amount of times that the FIA have let Schu get away with things would be brought up, JV getting penalised earlier this season etc would've been brought up. sometimes the path of least resistance is the best.

[Scotty]

It's a shame that a lot of the opinions on here are so biased to suggest that anyone finding against Schumacher is acutally a biased opinion. You're 100% wrong with that.

My view is purely based on what I saw. It wouldn't matter who was at the wheel, after seeing what I saw my opinion would be the same regardless.

[garcon magnifique]

So finding in favour of Schumacher is biased but finding against him isn't?

[Scotty]

Nope. I didn't say that. I said judging all the people who find against him as biased is biased. You're suggesting that I've only said he's guilty coz it was Schumi and that's not the case at all.

He drove an incredible race from the back that show's how good he is and I respect him as a driver. However that doesn't change my opinion of what I believe he did. i.e. a deliberate unsporting action.

[garcon magnifique]

Fair enough. Not all those accusing Schumi of cheating are doing so just because it's him. I accept your opinion as objective.

As an aside, it's funny how this has developed. At the beginning, purely going off the live footage, I got the impression alot of the more objective opinion veered towards it being a genuine mistake, with the usual Schumi bashers being the most vociferous accusers. (I moderate a motorsport forum - this is definitely the picture we were seeing). As time went on, the stewards deliberated and finally made their decision, and the weight of opinion shifted against Schumi. Not surprising - though it's interesting to see those who usually accuse the FIA of Ferrari bias suddenly hailing the stewards and FIA for 'standing up' to, er, something or other.

Also interesting, and a little disappointing, to hear Brundle shift from being highly sceptical that it was deliberate at the time, to 24 hours later (with the benefit of the stewards' decision) condemning Schumacher out of hand.

I still simply cannot understand how the stewards came to the conclusion it was deliberate. Their explanation of 'braking harder' is a nonsense.

[5to1]

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Do you when approaching a roundabout at speed suddenly jam the brake pedal into the carpet for a laugh... no neither do I because it would a stupid thing to do. So why would he do it

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Because he's not on a little trip to the shops.

He's trying to put in the fastest lap possible on a very tight circuit, and should he carry too much speed around a corner he could well total his car.

Having never driven an F1 car, let alone at Monaco, i'm not sure what I would do. However, if I was to hazzard a guess, if I was on pole and thought I was going into a corner too fast, i'd probably concentrate on avoiding the walls above all else.

Also wrt to what the black box tells you. Clearly the black box doesn't tell you a fraction of what a drivers senses do. If it did, good test drivers wouldn't be so saught after. Infact Schumi himself is considered one of the best in determining what a car is doing, and how to improve it.

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All well and good but the facts remain that the stewards found more than enough evidence from everything from interviewing Schumacher, people in the team, looking at the footage and from the telemetry. I'm quite certain that they wouldn't have taken this decision lightly, infact the time that they took to check everything I'm sure they wanted to be sure beyond reasonable doubt, because of the seriousness of the situation that they had made the right decision.

We don't have all the facts but they did, F1 now has a head steward who's name escapes me that goes to every race to ensure that the way in which the rules are interpreted are the same at every race to remove a local factor, not even than can be blamed any more.

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Well people can't have it both ways.

All those bashing Schumi for the incident were saying how poor, inconsistant and easily swayed the FIA are, and now all of a sudden they are the paragon of virute. They are so brilliant that they can deduce what is an acceptibile level of braking and what isn't?

Either they are poor or they are not. Considering the slating they got prior to making the decision its a bit difficult to now hold their decision up as any meaningfull proof on its own. So wether they had more information to make the decision is irrelevant.

Its the explanation they've released that counts. And clearly there's not enough there to make such a decision.

Infact the length of time they took to make the decision does not add any credence to it. All that time and this is the best they could come up with?

If were going to guess what they did for all those hours (which we must due to the little information they've released), it could suggested they saw the outrage in the pitlane and in certain parts of the media and waited to see if it would subsisde. When it didn't they went with the popular decision. This explanation is probably more in keeping with peoples original opinion of the FIA.