Brabus Posted August 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Merc have created a hard core Automatic. There is a market for it and thats why they have created it. Its an SLK 55 AMG+, there are plenty of people who are willing to pay 20k for something that little more focused when they want it to be, but that its not a total pain in the arse to drive through any majorly congested city in the country. Its slightly compromised as a result, but that is obviously what the buyer wants. It might not be what you want from a more focus'ed car but it is what other people might want. The two can live side by side. When working at Bentley I once saw 6 911 Turbos in a row, a pretty focused car but not one of them had a manual gearbox, I'd never think of getting a 911 with a slush box but these owners did. Different people with different requirements from their car. [/ QUOTE ] Nicely put Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] ....Exactly! And I'm so glad that my lowly Mk5 GTI offered the choice of options between manual and DSG . [/ QUOTE ] Out of interest would you have bought it with an automatic gearbox? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ In this instance though we are talking about the new 7 speed automatic gearbox not the car itself. You have damned the gearbox without even trying it, for all you know it could be fantastic [/ QUOTE ] No. No I haven't. This could be the greatest automatic ever known! Prince among automatics. The fact remains however that I question the logic in putting an automatic in what I belive Mercedes and AMG have set out to create with this car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] When working at Bentley I once saw 6 911 Turbos in a row, a pretty focused car but not one of them had a manual gearbox, I'd never think of getting a 911 with a slush box but these owners did. Different people with different requirements from their car. [/ QUOTE ] And how many of those six cars were GT3's? This is the thing. I've NO PROBLEM with an auto in a high performance car whatsoever. I have NO PROBLEM with the concept of an automatic full stop. But Mercedes have built a car which is the GT3 of SLK's if you like, a no compromise drivers tool. It shouldn't have an auto. It is NOT a high performance car for those who want their creature comforts, they already build that car, it's the SLK 55 AMG. This car is something different. It is to the SLK 55 AMG what the GT3 is to the Porsche 911 or what the M3 CSL is to a normal M3. A drivers tool, plain and simple. Porsche would absolutely not have built this car with an auto any more than they would consider an auto in a GT3, and nor would BMW any more than they'd put an auto into a M3CSL. I suspect the one and only reason that Mercedes have built this car as an auto is because they don't have a manual that will work with it (a thought backed up by the lack of any manual option). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 From Car Magazine: [ QUOTE ] You sit in one-piece bucket seats bolted to the floor behind a suede wheel – the driving position is near-perfect. Beside you the cheap plastic door handles appear to have been taken off a 1970s filing cabinet and look incredibly cool bolted directly to the carbon door inserts taken from the SLK pace car. This isn't bullshit pretension, just the cheapest way of shedding weight off the SLK. [/ QUOTE ] You can't tell me Mercedes built this car for the Kings Road poseur to burble up and down in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] ....Exactly! And I'm so glad that my lowly Mk5 GTI offered the choice of options between manual and DSG . [/ QUOTE ] Out of interest would you have bought it with an automatic gearbox? [/ QUOTE ] ....Hi Ari . That's an extremely good question and I'm totally sure that I would have bought a manual version rather than a conventional automatic GTI. Automatic transmission in my BMW was great when I was living in Central London. Most of the current S-tronic, flappy paddle etc etc systems appear (I haven't driven many) to include many manual characteristics - It's only the clutch which is 'automatic'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 What's interesting though, is that VW offer an auto on the Golf except for the sporty one (the GTI). Presumably because they feel it wouldn't be in charactor with the performance derivative. I'll bet that if Mercedes had a good manual gearbox for that SLK Black Series, not only would it be standard, but there actually wouldn't be an automatic version at all and they'd be quoting something like "it's not in keeping with the aims of this car". It's only an auto cos they've got no choice, I'm convinced of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woppum Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] ....Exactly! And I'm so glad that my lowly Mk5 GTI offered the choice of options between manual and DSG . [/ QUOTE ] Out of interest would you have bought it with an automatic gearbox? [/ QUOTE ] ....Hi Ari . That's an extremely good question and I'm totally sure that I would have bought a manual version rather than a conventional automatic GTI. Automatic transmission in my BMW was great when I was living in Central London. Most of the current S-tronic, flappy paddle etc etc systems appear (I haven't driven many) to include many manual characteristics - It's only the clutch which is 'automatic'. [/ QUOTE ] We have a Passat with DSG but no paddles. That is an Automatic. Dosent the Gti DSG have a very good auto function anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brabus Posted August 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] It's only an auto cos they've got no choice, I'm convinced of that. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, you're right. I'm sure a company small and inept such as Mercedez-Benz AMG couldn't possibly knock out a good manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It's only an auto cos they've got no choice, I'm convinced of that. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, you're right. I'm sure a company small and inept such as Mercedez-Benz AMG couldn't possibly knock out a good manual. [/ QUOTE ] Didn't say they couldn't. Said they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brabus Posted August 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It's only an auto cos they've got no choice, I'm convinced of that. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, you're right. I'm sure a company small and inept such as Mercedez-Benz AMG couldn't possibly knock out a good manual. [/ QUOTE ] Didn't say they couldn't. Said they don't. [/ QUOTE ] ...and why don't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Probably because to develop a complete new manual gearbox for a single model would cost too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brabus Posted August 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Probably because to develop a complete new manual gearbox for a single model would cost too much. [/ QUOTE ] But it wouldn't be for a single model, it would be for the whole Black series range according to you! Also, Mercedez are hardly short of cash are they now? Sorry, your argument fails there. Mercedez-Benz just don't do manuals, they do very good auto's which is what their customers want. You might not agree with it but that's tough titty frankly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 The whole Black Series range being what. three or four models? Ther'e Not doing an SR S Class, A Class, R Class, M Class, or others. There's only going to be a handful of these models and very limited demand at that I should think (how many M3 CSL or GT3's do you see compared with "normal" M3 or 911's?) Ok let me put it another way. If they could economically offer a manual gearbox, then even if they did for some odd reason decide to do an auto, surely they would offer a manual as an option? It's not an option becasue such a thing doesn't exist. [ QUOTE ] Mercedez-Benz just don't do manuals, they do very good auto's which is what their customers want. [/ QUOTE ] Look at those door cards, those door handles, those seat. This is NOT a normal Mercedes, it's not even a normal AMG. It's something quite different, a new market, a new customer. A new breed. Please don't misunderstand me, I love this car, I think it's awesome. But they should have finished the job. They should have put a manual or a paddleshift manual gearbox in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarMad Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] But they should have finished the job. They should have put a manual or a paddleshift manual gearbox in it. [/ QUOTE ] Hold the phone !!! Whats the difference between an Auto and a manual paddle shift gearbox then ? Is that not an Auto box that can be used manually then ? Which this can, see the paddles in the picture above. So you are ok with an Auto being in the car. Good good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 No no. A paddleshift manual gearbox is totally different to a "normal" automatic, even if the auto has paddles. Basically imagine a normal three pedal manual gearbox. Now imagine arranging a system by which when you hit a button or paddle, the machinery dipped the clutch, engaged the next gear (up or down), blipped the throttle if a downshift, and re-engaged the clutch. So the effect is exactly as if you'd done it yourself (albeit much quicker) it's just that the machine did it for you. Well that is a paddleshift manual, as fitted to cars like the Ferrari F430, BMW M3 and CSL, Lamborghini, etc. There is also a more complex version fitted to the Golf GTI, Bugatti Veyron etc but lets not get bogged down. Now, imagine a normal auto as fitted to a Mercedes S Class or a Rolls Royce. No clutch, it's got a torque converter instead. Now if you attach paddles to that then you still get a normal auto, but you get to choose when it changes gear by prodding the paddles. The advantage of a normal auto is that it is much smoother so perfect for "normal" cars. The advantage with a paddleshift manual is that the car reacts just like a manual, so you have total control, but they can be jerky in town and they can fry the clutch if you (for instance) hold the car on the accelerator on a hill like you might with an auto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] So you are ok with an Auto being in the car. Good good. [/ QUOTE ] Oh yes, totally. I wouldn't buy a Mercedes E Class (for example) with anything else. Also high performance GT cars like the Bentley GT are magnificent with autos. Indeed were I buying a normal SLK 55 AMG (were there a choice, there isn't), I'd have auto, definitely. I have nothing at all against autos, it's just that in a car so focused to driving like the Porsche 911 GT3, M3 CSl, and now this SLK 55 AMG Black Series, it has to be a proper manual, be it paddleshift or conventional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarMad Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] No no. A paddleshift manual gearbox is totally different to a "normal" automatic, even if the auto has paddles. Basically imagine a normal three pedal manual gearbox. Now imagine arranging a system by which when you hit a button or paddle, the machinery dipped the clutch, engaged the next gear (up or down), blipped the throttle if a downshift, and re-engaged the clutch. So the effect is exactly as if you'd done it yourself (albeit much quicker) it's just that the machine did it for you. Well that is a paddleshift manual, as fitted to cars like the Ferrari F430, BMW M3 and CSL, Lamborghini, etc. There is also a more complex version fitted to the Golf GTI, Bugatti Veyron etc but lets not get bogged down. Now, imagine a normal auto as fitted to a Mercedes S Class or a Rolls Royce. No clutch, it's got a torque converter instead. Now if you attach paddles to that then you still get a normal auto, but you get to choose when it changes gear by prodding the paddles. The advantage of a normal auto is that it is much smoother so perfect for "normal" cars. The advantage with a paddleshift manual is that the car reacts just like a manual, so you have total control, but they can be jerky in town and they can fry the clutch if you (for instance) hold the car on the accelerator on a hill like you might with an auto. [/ QUOTE ] Not quite true anymore though. The autos of today can be easily as quick as a Manual DSG / SMG type arrangement and also don't have the step of delay that can be so annoying. Some of the sports autos will give you as quick a change, as much as a jolt and will act just like a full manual locking every gear so the torque converter element of the gearbox is removed. A gearbox that can do this you ask, step forward the Merc 7G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] What's interesting though, is that VW offer an auto on the Golf except for the sporty one (the GTI). Presumably because they feel it wouldn't be in charactor with the performance derivative. [/ QUOTE ] ....In the case of VW I think it's a cost issue rather than 'character'. The DSG option in Mk5 Golfs adds about £750 IIRC. I think that there is an increasing market for high performance cars, such as these Mercs, to have the new transmission technology. That technology is far removed from what was previously known as automatic and it goes a very long way towards still keeping driver involvement. I'm not saying that one is better than the other because different strokes suit different folks, but I will argue until the cows come home about how DSG (for example) maintains both driver involvement and driving pleasure/fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Yes but Robin, DSG is a MANUAL gearbox with paddle actuation. It has a clutch (two actually), it's not a conventional auto (even though it has auto mode). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woppum Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] No no. A paddleshift manual gearbox is totally different to a "normal" automatic, even if the auto has paddles. Basically imagine a normal three pedal manual gearbox. Now imagine arranging a system by which when you hit a button or paddle, the machinery dipped the clutch, engaged the next gear (up or down), blipped the throttle if a downshift, and re-engaged the clutch. So the effect is exactly as if you'd done it yourself (albeit much quicker) it's just that the machine did it for you. Well that is a paddleshift manual, as fitted to cars like the Ferrari F430, BMW M3 and CSL, Lamborghini, etc. There is also a more complex version fitted to the Golf GTI, Bugatti Veyron etc but lets not get bogged down. Now, imagine a normal auto as fitted to a Mercedes S Class or a Rolls Royce. No clutch, it's got a torque converter instead. Now if you attach paddles to that then you still get a normal auto, but you get to choose when it changes gear by prodding the paddles. The advantage of a normal auto is that it is much smoother so perfect for "normal" cars. The advantage with a paddleshift manual is that the car reacts just like a manual, so you have total control, but they can be jerky in town and they can fry the clutch if you (for instance) hold the car on the accelerator on a hill like you might with an auto. [/ QUOTE ] Not quite true anymore though. The autos of today can be easily as quick as a Manual DSG / SMG type arrangement and also don't have the step of delay that can be so annoying. Some of the sports autos will give you as quick a change, as much as a jolt and will act just like a full manual locking every gear so the torque converter element of the gearbox is removed. A gearbox that can do this you ask, step forward the Merc 7G [/ QUOTE ] I know the SL65 gear change is not a touch on as quick as the one in the CSL. Both the 430 and the CSL change gear in 0.1 seconds. At a guess id say the 65 works well over half a second slower. It probably like having the CSL on the very slowest speed rating (not that I have tried that). But even if it was as quick, it just dosent feel the same. There is no thud as you make the cog slot in to the next gear, as Aris says, it has a torque converter. Silky smooth just not as fun... Now if SLK can be as much of a hoot as Evo say, or is like a mini DTM like chris says, it should make a very interesting car... However, I thought they were only going to make 100 of these? I think I recently read that AMG have re-done their factory. They have one section for the run of the mill AMG cars (55's), then the 65 engine is made alongside the SLR one. Then the Black series section (which is very very small) is to make the run of 100 CLK DTM cabs (worldwide) and 100 SLK's (worldwide). For the sake of 200 cars, I dont think even merc would risk taking in a whole new gearbox. With all the technical problems they are having at the moment, the last thing they wasnt to do is not stick to what they know. Total belt and brace approach is what they need... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brabus Posted August 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] know the SL65 gear change is not a touch on as quick as the one in the CSL. Both the 430 and the CSL change gear in 0.1 seconds. [/ QUOTE ] Ermm - crikey. Thats even faster than a formula one car Do you mean 0.8 seconds.... An Enzo will shift in 0.33 seconds and a formula one car in 0.2 or something similar. I might be mistaken though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamD Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Nope apparently it is 0.08s (http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/bmw_m3csl.asp) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazza_g Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] know the SL65 gear change is not a touch on as quick as the one in the CSL. Both the 430 and the CSL change gear in 0.1 seconds. [/ QUOTE ] Ermm - crikey. Thats even faster than a formula one car Do you mean 0.8 seconds.... An Enzo will shift in 0.33 seconds and a formula one car in 0.2 or something similar. I might be mistaken though! [/ QUOTE ] yup, thats way too slow - the SMG3 in the M5 and M6 will shift in 50 milliseconds, so 0.05 of a second. In Formula one they are not allowed to use so called 'zero shift' systems and there is actually a minimum time period each shift must take Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brabus Posted August 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Ok ok ,I get the point! My mistake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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